The great big, all-inclusive Leisure Pro note

[truva]

Not really, the problem with the Pinto was a proven design flaw Ford chose to accept (in fact they did a study and it would have cost more to fix the problem then settle the resulting lawsuits and deaths) there's nothing inherently wrong with SP or Apeks regs, something or someone has to break them, not either manufacturers' choice.

There is nothing wrong with the designs of this equipment that is not what I meant when I started this. The basic design types, piston and diaphragm, are sound, personally the one big draw back to the piston designs, the metal dynamic exposed sealing surface, is enough to out weigh it’s benefits for me.

Lets say that the machined housing had a hairline crack running through it and it made it out to the public. My intent was to point out the invalid argument everyone involved in the industry makes. That being something like “We care so much about your safety that we will supply free parts to a “qualified” technician, (as long as he sales our stuff) to service your equipment every year. Now buy this brand new/unused from someone that is not a dealer in the US and we offer no warranty”. Now if this were about safety, they would be willing to extend a warranty out to anything they have made for a number of years. Who needs the warranty anyway all it would cover would be the standard manufacturing defects etcetera and they probably would cover those anyway.

It’s about the money, keeping a closed market closed……

Truva

 

[MikeFerrara]

Of course it's about money.

The Mamufacturers need dive shops. LP may be able to push regs but they don't make divers. I had the only dive shop withing about 40 miles. But that shop closed too so there isn't another shop for maybe 50 or 60 miles in any direction. That's a lot of people who won't be seeing our signs and yellow page adds. Many of those people who would have started diving aren't even going to think of it now and if they do many more aren't going to travel to the next nearest shop. That will hurt the manufacturers.

Right or wrong they rely on the low cost of instruction to get people to start diving and a descent markup on equipment to keep the shop in business. If the cost of instruction goes way way up which is, what I want for many reasons, I really think lots of people will be put off from day one. In fact I can just about promis that. The difference between me and the manufacturers is that I don't care. They need shops offering cheap certifications.

I'm sure that when LP starts to certify as many divers as all the shops that are going out of business were that all the manufacturers will be happy to have LP be a dealer.

There's much that I don't like about the manufacturers, shops and agencies (just read the board) but I have no use for LP either. They have no stake in this. They don't know diving and they don't care about diving. Their, next shipment in of stuff in to sell could just as easily be clocks or whatever.

If it were up to me we'd all buy gear directly from the manufacturers and dive shops would make money on what dive shops do. OW classes will be $1500 (and they'd be good classes rather than the slop we have now) reg service would be $65/hour and air $20 per fill but regs will be $350 instead of $600.

I've said this before divers pay the price in this by the lousy cheap training (that the model almost makes mandatory) they get and most don't even realize it. I find that a bit funny too..."Gee...look at me..(in a silt cloud)...I can't dive worth spit but I saved 50% on my reg...yuk yuk yuk...that wicked shop isn't going to pull one over on me...yuk yuk yuk"...(more silt clouds rise)...

for now there is cheap traing and thanks to the LP's of the worls cheap equipment. Enjoy it.

 

[redacted]

Of course it's about money.
If it were up to me we'd all buy gear directly from the manufacturers and dive shops would make money on what dive shops do. OW classes will be $1500 (and they'd be good classes rather than the slop we have now) reg service would be $65/hour and air $20 per fill but regs will be $350 instead of $600.

Replacing inflated equipment prices with inflated training, service, and gas prices isn't going to fix much. I payed $350 instead of $600 for my Mk20/S600. With a little shoppiong, it wasn't hard to find. I paid $65/hr for service once. I blacklisted that shop & do my own now. I pay $4 for air but keep telling the owner he's not charging enough. $5 to $7 would stll be competetive. Much more than that & I could justify going in with some friends on a compressor. And you already know what happens when you try to charge a premium price for training. For a new diver who just wants to get wet, price may be the only factor he can deal with. While I never considered becoming an instructor, it was pretty clear early on that being an instructor must be fun because there sure seemed to be alot of them. Instruction can not demand high prices when it is so readily available at low prices.

I was just helping a friend shop around for nitrox instruction. SSI shop wants $150 and PADI shop wants $200. I doubt if he will judge the 2 training dive to be worth $50.

If prices in other areas get out of hand, I see independent clubs replacing gouging dive shops and equipment manufacturers supporting clubs.

 

[Genesis]

If prices in other areas get out of hand, I see independent clubs replacing gouging dive shops and equipment manufacturers supporting clubs.

I love that idea - how come we can't have some of that now?

For example - let's say I can demonstrate the skills for a cavern card. How come I can't "test out" for one? Is there some particular reason - other than people's desire to gouge me - that I can't get in the water with someone, pay them for the hour that it takes to do a couple of dives with me and demonstrate the skills that are demanded, and have the card forked over?

Ditto for any other card - why do I need the class to obtain it?

Is it about the money, or is it about the skills?

Hmmmmm.....

 

[MikeFerrara]

Replacing inflated equipment prices with inflated training, service, and gas prices isn't going to fix much. I payed $350 instead of $600 for my Mk20/S600. With a little shoppiong, it wasn't hard to find. I paid $65/hr for service once. I blacklisted that shop & do my own now. I pay $4 for air but keep telling the owner he's not charging enough. $5 to $7 would stll be competetive. Much more than that & I could justify going in with some friends on a compressor. And you already know what happens when you try to charge a premium price for training. For a new diver who just wants to get wet, price may be the only factor he can deal with. While I never considered becoming an instructor, it was pretty clear early on that being an instructor must be fun because there sure seemed to be alot of them. Instruction can not demand high prices when it is so readily available at low prices.

I was just helping a friend shop around for nitrox instruction. SSI shop wants $150 and PADI shop wants $200. I doubt if he will judge the 2 training dive to be worth $50.

If prices in other areas get out of hand, I see independent clubs replacing gouging dive shops and equipment manufacturers supporting clubs.

What I'k getting at is for a OW classes to be a profit center that's about what they'll cost. They're giving them away to sell equipment now.

When I had a shop I calculated what I would need to charge for a fill to get a 2 year pay back on the cost of my compressor. That's pretty standard for a capital investment. With the volume of air I pumped to paying customers I would have had to charge about $25 per fill. I've explained this all before but at an inland shop the compressor is there mainly so you can teach classes and you loose money on those unless the class sells equipment.

I also calculated that an OW class cost me over $ 500 per student to teach. That includes a portion of the rent, equipment costs and insurance (burdened) but did not include any pay for my 40 hours of time, travel expenses or DM costs. In the calculations my efforts looked like a gift to the shop.

Like I said for gas or training to be profit centers the price will go way way up.

Actually, since you could never sell air for that much the entire cost of the fill station would need to be ameterized in the classes making them that much higher.

$65/hour for service is right in line with what you'll pay to get a car or electronics fixed. That's what stuff like that costs everyplace except a dive shop where it's almost free.

I'm not suggesting that one shop charge a premium price for training. I'm stating what training would cost with shops out of the retail business.

You guys don't want to subsudize training with your equipment purchases but you don't want to pay for anything else either.

 

[Scott M]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, two words, "buying group"

The LDS can stop the madness whenever they want to or....not.

 

[Genesis]

What I'k getting at is for a OW classes to be a profit center that's about what they'll cost. They're giving them away to sell equipment now.

Agreed.

When I had a shop I calculated what I would need to charge for a fill to get a 2 year pay back on the cost of my compressor. That's pretty standard for a capital investment.

You're WAY off base on that one. Sure, for a piece of hardware that has a 5 year lifetime, yes. But a compressor? C'mon Mike. Even the IRS won't let you get away with that.

5 year cost recovery is somewhat reasonable.

Give me some numbers on the volume of air pumped to customers please.

I also calculated that an OW class cost me over $ 500 per student to teach. That includes a portion of the rent, equipment costs and insurance (burdened) but did not include any pay for my 40 hours of time, travel expenses or DM costs. In the calculations my efforts looked like a gift to the shop.

Like I said for gas or training to be profit centers the price will go way way up.

Actually, since you could never sell air for that much the entire cost of the fill station would need to be ameterized in the classes making them that much higher.

I can easily make the case that at $5/fill you're ok with Grade "E", and at $10/fill for Nitrox you're making out like a bandit, even given the additional filter tower and O2 cost. Hell, I can do this even with my little compressor!

$65/hour for service is right in line with what you'll pay to get a car or electronics fixed. That's what stuff like that costs everyplace except a dive shop where it's almost free.

True. And in an hour you should be able to get a professional service on a first and two seconds. Most shops charge more than this, and do less. If I can do it on my kitchen table in that amount of time.....

I'm not suggesting that one shop charge a premium price for training. I'm stating what training would cost with shops out of the retail business.

You guys don't want to subsudize training with your equipment purchases but you don't want to pay for anything else either.

Sure we do.

I want to pay for actual training.

If I don't need training, and meet the requirements for a given "rating", I want to be able to be issued proof of same for nothing more than processing costs.

Remember the saying "training is purchased, certification is earned"?

Well, that's not true. If I don't need the training, I still cannot have the certification without purchasing it. Therefore, certification is purchased, and you MIGHT get training with the card - or maybe not.

IANTD's (and GUEs!) claim to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, two words, "buying group"

The LDS can stop the madness whenever they want to or....not.

Forget retail. Let LP have it all.

Just look at the cost of training.

Even now without a shop it doesn't make sense to teach a reasonable size OW class for less than about $450/student. When I had a shop to support I only charged about $350 (it was different prices at different times).

True you can get a class 50 miles away for $270. It's not the same class though and in fact there's no comparisson at all. Their instructor isn't making any money and the shop is going to ram Aqualung down your throat because the class is just bait.

The class is just bait. As they sell less Aqualung they'll charge more for training, service and air or close.

Now this is all fine to me because I intend on teaching about two classes a year. If there isn't a demand for that I'll be just as happy to go do my own diving on those weekends and fix my own regs on those evenings. LOL

 

[Scott M]

Forget retail. Let LP have it all.

Just look at the cost of training.

Even now without a shop it doesn't make sense to teach a reasonable size OW class for less than about $450/student. When I had a shop to support I only charged about $350 (it was different prices at different times).

True you can get a class 50 miles away for $270. It's not the same class though and in fact there's no comparisson at all. Their instructor isn't making any money and the shop is going to ram Aqualung down your throat because the class is just bait.

The class is just bait. As they sell less Aqualung they'll charge more for training, service and air or close.

Now this is all fine to me because I intend on teaching about two classes a year. If there isn't a demand for that I'll be just as happy to go do my own diving on those weekends and fix my own regs on those evenings. LOL

Mike, my idea of a well rounded shop (a shop that does this full time and not as a side business to support their diving habit) should be able to take advantage of ALL aspects of the business not just training, not just air and not just equipment. I also believe in any business each area has to be responsible for holding up it's own end financially.

The ideal shop would do it all:
Classes from introductory courses for the individual who intends to do no more than dive twice a year on a 40' reef to the in depth ones that Gen has described in another post. Sell the product let the consumer decide the course they are willing to pay for. With everything to offer why would anybody go anywhere else. The Wal-mart phylosophy.

Air fills: Same thing. Offer air and Nitrox. With the captive audience you can charge a fair price. The customers will buy it and possibly pay a little more because of it is there. With a shop that has everything and offers everything the customer will pay a little more. When you go to Lowe's you get the product that is on sale and buy the high profit batteries on the way out the door.

Gear and Equipment: With a buying group you would be buying for less therefore able to compete with LP. Remember you do not have to beat them. As we all know the LDS has other things to offer which increases the VALUE of the gear. But because the LDS is buying for less they are still making money. Buying groups also make it possible to trade gear with other members, this is ahuge advantage.

Service: This should pay for itself also. Car dealerships realized this years ago and many dealerships that at one point considered service to be a liability now have service departments that make most of their profit for the year.

Above all: Stop employing ALL divers to run the place. Yes you need some but a good attitude and pleasant smile will sell more.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis,

I wasn't suggesting a 2 year depreciation for tax purposes. I'm talking pay back. The guidline that's been used by every large corporation I've worked for is a two year pay back if they spend a buck it has to make them a buck in 2 years. If the cost of a piece of equipment is amaterized into the cost of a product it's usually done on a two year basis.

When I claculated the cost I did it based on volume and I doubt I sold much more than 100 fills per year to paying customers.

the rest of the hours on the machine were student tanks for classes and gas for divemasters. My air testing alone was probably $300/year I had about $10,000 in the fill station including compressor.

If I don't need training, and meet the requirements for a given "rating", I want to be able to be issued proof of same for nothing more than processing costs.

You can want all you want. See if a colledge will give you a degre that way. Last I knew they limit the number of credits that can transfer in and the number of classes that you can test out of. In other words you're going to spend some money there to get a degree from them.

Actually things like this ARE done from time to time if you're really that good. In the case of some classes it would take a significant amount of time and cost just to show proficiency so it might not save you that much because you would still have to get in the water and demo each skill. This is easier to do when the instructor is already very familiar with the student and has already seen them do everything. Therefore it's more common for the class to go faster if your that good. I wouldn't have any problem with charging by the hour and for expenses. The question is would the student go for it?

Some agencies do have provisions in the standards for giving students credit for experience.