The great big, all-inclusive Leisure Pro note

[MikeFerrara]

I find it amusing that on one hand you complain about cost-shifting (e.g. selling classes at a loss, and subsidizing them with hardware sales) but when it comes time to set prices for fills, you want do the same thing ($25 for an air fill when you admit up front that you fill 10 times as many tanks for your DMs and classes as for customers, yet you wish to charge the fill customer for your DM's fill!)

If you're going to argue against cross-subsidization don't try to justify doing it yourself!

You are wrong again.

I don't want to do anything at all which why I closed the flipping place.

I was only charging $5 for an air fill and was speaking to what I would have to charge to make money and NOT to what I was charging.

Give me a break man all I said was that's what I would have had to charge to be ahead. I spent lots of money to fill tanks and I filled them and made nothing. You should be very pleased instead of insulting me.

I didn't justify doing anything because I didn't do anything.

 

[truva]

This “self-regulating” industry is shooting itself in the foot big time.

No one has really understands the impact that the Internet has made and will continue to make to the dive industry. The LDS is going to have to change or just go away, doesn’t really matter, if you know the guys down at the fire station like we used to do before C-cards. If you look say at ebay you will be able to find people the are dealers for the equipment they are selling and will sale it competitively with what LP is selling it for and they HAVE the stuff. People will discover this and the LDS will go away like a lot of other businesses that don’t keep up. So when this happens you will have Dive Operators, which make their money with trips and air near dive locations and a few companies that sell/service equipment.

So now the problem is who do we sale the equipment to? Since this is a “self regulating” industry, whatever that really means, they will change a few of their own rules, just like the basic OW class has “changed” over the years. I imagine it would be something like what they did to Amateur Radio, you used to have to take a test from the FCC and now 3 other amateurs can give you the test. So they’d buy or start a new agency and let friends who have been certified a few years get their friends certified and problem solved. The dive operators would have allow this as long as the “newbe” is diving with his buddy that is training. We now have customers and everyone’s happy, well at least the manufactures that make the change. We’ll still have to dive with bozo the diver every time we go on vacation.

This is just a version I have of the future of this industry it I am sure will have some differences from what really happens but change is coming no doubt.

Truva

 

[Genesis]

You are wrong again.

I don't want to do anything at all which why I closed the flipping place.

I was only charging $5 for an air fill and was speaking to what I would have to charge to make money and NOT to what I was charging.

Give me a break man all I said was that's what I would have had to charge to be ahead. I spent lots of money to fill tanks and I filled them and made nothing. You should be very pleased instead of insulting me.

I didn't justify doing anything because I didn't do anything.

All I'm point out, Mike, is that precisely what you say is so distasteful is indeed what you say you'd have had to resort to to make money at the game.

I and others have repeatedly pointed out that there are alternatives. I understand that you don't believe they'd work, but you speak only from your belief and not from experience, because you never tried them.

What I know from my business experience is that I failed - several times - before I succeded. MCSNet was not my first venture - indeed, it was either the fourth or fifth (depending on exactly how you want to count "instances") incarnation of a computer-industry business for me.

The others, while keeping me in food and shelter for many years, were, objectively speaking, failures.

 

[MikeFerrara]

All I'm point out, Mike, is that precisely what you say is so distasteful is indeed what you say you'd have had to resort to to make money at the game.

I found it distastful too. That's why I'm not there any more.

I and others have repeatedly pointed out that there are alternatives. I understand that you don't believe they'd work, but you speak only from your belief and not from experience, because you never tried them.

It's not that I don't believe they work. I didn't try them because 1, I had no resources left to try anything and 2, because I find the entire industry so distastful that I just don't care what would work.

From here out...I have the gas and I have all the cards I'll ever need. Except for not having a boat I'm about as independant as they come. I might have paid too much but it's done and the "industry" has little to offer me. Divers can keep buying cheap lousy classes and buying regs from LP and thinking they got away with something and aside from an entertaining debate here it just doesn't matter. I even have places to dive where all their silt won't ruin my dive and I don't have to watch. I'll dive how and when it suits me and I'll teach how and when it suits me. If I don't teach I'll just dive.

What I know from my business experience is that I failed - several times - before I succeded. MCSNet was not my first venture - indeed, it was either the fourth or fifth (depending on exactly how you want to count "instances") incarnation of a computer-industry business for me.

Well, I'm not planning any more ventures unless you have one a guy can get in on with coffee money. LOL

 

[Genesis]

From here out...I have the gas and I have all the cards I'll ever need. Except for not having a boat I'm about as independant as they come. I might have paid too much but it's done and the "industry" has little to offer me. Divers can keep buying cheap lousy classes and buying regs from LP and thinking they got away with something and aside from an entertaining debate here it just doesn't matter. I even have places to dive where all their silt won't ruin my dive and I don't have to watch. I'll dive how and when it suits me and I'll teach how and when it suits me. If I don't teach I'll just dive.

Well, I'm not planning any more ventures unless you have one a guy can get in on with coffee money. LOL

Well, if 'ya want to dive some of the wrecks out here in the gulf, holler. I do have a boat - in fact, I have two of 'em....

 

[TDunbar]

When dive shops cease subsidizing things like education and air fills with gear sales and charge what it actually cost to provide these items, they will be able to successfully compete on price with any internet sales venue. Walk into just about any tennis, ski or golf pro shop and you'll find their gear prices are close to anything you can find online. The only thing extra you pay for might be the convenience of playing touchy-feely and walking out gear in hand. Sounds like a no-brainer, huh?

The rub with a significant portion of dive shops is that they are/were operated by divers rather than businessmen. Perhaps they spend too much time teaching and diving to realize that the business model they are accustomed to has gone the way of the J-valve. Ultimately, they will adjust or suffer the same fate.......

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well, if 'ya want to dive some of the wrecks out here in the gulf, holler. I do have a boat - in fact, I have two of 'em....

You're liable to see me there one of these days. I don't get in the ocean much. There are some caves out in the gulf you know?

 

[MikeFerrara]

They also believe what they were taught and just don't have a clue. Most nelieve what they tell you accross the counter. It's almost like brain washing.

That's why I got out. I won't sell classes for what they go for because I can't teach what I think is a good class for that and my time and effort is worth more to me. I certainly won't do it to sell another reg for a manufacturer who sends an idiot around a couple times a year to threaten me.

PADI doesn't deal on the price of a bool or a PIC and the manufacturer doesn't deal on the price of their goods. They are making out pretty well.

 

[SeaJay]

Businesses that get angry at customers that don't want to support their personal perception of their value proposition are missing the #4 rule of Retail business (#1-3 being Location), namely that the customer is always right.

Those that ignore that they may be in a demograophic market that will not support their store, then get mad when customers complain that their prices are higher then the compitition and try to explain to the customer why they should buy from them anyway because if not the store will close and the customer won't be able to buy from their overpriced establishment once they are gone... shortly will be gone.

Some will survive, some won't... And those that thrive on change, and are ready for it, will prosper.

As someone who spent more than a decade and a half in retail, and as someone who owns retail stores now - I can tell you that your words are exactly right.

Nicely said.

 

[Genesis]

You're liable to see me there one of these days. I don't get in the ocean much. There are some caves out in the gulf you know?

I haven't found any caves, but there are some really neat ledges (limestone) at varying depths - the ones that are cool are pretty deep, 110+, some over 200. The latter I havent' done - no deep air for me, thank you very much.

There are a LOT of wrecks, most intentionally sunk, but not all. There are two LARGE shrimp trawlers that I have numbers for that supposedly went down that a buddy of mine fishes all the time, they're in the 100-130' range but definitely diveable, and they're REAL wrecks - and should be quite cool. They're long runs from here though and I haven't gotten the right combination of weather and divers yet to do them.

Then there are the many (and I do mean MANY!) intentionally sunk boats out there - most are really neat dives, and the better ones are deeper and less-travelled. Some were not prepped TOO well, and others were - things like hatches being welded shut and such. They're all good for spearfishing, some are good for penetration, and on the right days, video is neat too.

All in all I have close to 1500 "marks", and about 400 active in my chart machine. I've only been to a few dozen so far..... there are a LOT that I've never seen (at least not yet!)