The Ethics of Full Disclosure on ScubaBoard

[The Chairman]

It's become obvious to others too.

You're being tiresome and puerile. He's pointed to your behavior in this very thread. WHAT MORE EVIDENCE IS NEEDED? That you can't see your own belligerence is not surprising to us and the "others" have noticed it as well. What evidence is needed other than him stating that he doesn't like the way you come across? Unless you can show us an invoice, then it's no stretch that he hasn't bought anything from you and it's completely believable that he's not going to. Here's a news flash for you Walter Cronkite: you're not much of a people person and it shows. Are you waiting for a message from God or something?

 

[gfaith]

This thread has totally gone off track.

Yes, Tobin can be a grumpy old f**t, but his products speak for themselves. If you decide not to buy his product it is your loss. In other words you spite yourself if you need any of his stuff. I was reading a thread recent about his bungee mounts where another user attacked him and then had the nuts to ask if he had one that worked with the Vyper Air.. dumb anyway Tobin has a bungee mount that does fit the Vyper Air and neither he nor I told the attacker.

I will continue to buy his products and might even ask his opinion.

 

[scubadada]

Wow, has this thread gotten off topic. Conflicts of interest should be disclosed.

 

[cerich]

I've been quite clear that with full disclosure I have no objection to the "Tupperware" or "Avon" marketing model per se. Perfectly reasonable approach in the current environ of ever fewer dive shops. Not sure I understand what Chris would have to be upset about.

Requiring his resellers to disclose their affiliation is exactly what I would encourage. Zero problems with that.

Was the OP referring to Chris's new effort? I never got that impression.

My objection remains with firms that encourage the creation of conflicts of interest.

Tobin

my point to Pete was that I do feel strongly that the ethically right thing to do is when people are getting a benefit for helping sell/promote/review items from a company they should disclose the relationship.

In fact it's US law that when somebody gets free product for review that they do in fact disclose.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, just saw Pete mentioned me and your reply

 

[cerich]

FWIW here is my general 2psi on the issue.

I am in fact doing a model that relies on word of mouth and non dealer instructor goodwill to help get me sales. I need to identify what I can do to make that happen.

First, I need great product and great customer service...and that is a ongoing process..with some trip ups along the way. When I trip up with either I need to own it and do what I can to make it right..and sometimes I don't like it..but really it's important.

I commission the instructors that sign up as affiliates, because they earn it. That said, the last thing I would want to see is somebody making whole cloth "Deep 6 is the absolute best whatever product" claims that aren't based on something that is objectively quantifiable, I want them to be able to be truthful salespersons. I also know that human nature is what it is, so there will most likely exist a bias for somebody that is getting a commission, I also know that many of them genuinely really believe in our product and model and that is the bias.. the commission is a bonus.

The benefit of buying Deep 6 thru an instructor affiliated with us to the consumer is they get a small discount. I also know that affiliate becomes not just a salesperson but also a resource often for the consumer.

By being open and transparent about the model at Deep 6 it's my hope that the consumer will be better able to make choices on their gear buys as educated as possible, including on how the affiliate programs works

 

[dorsal]

back on topic ..... Someone shilling for a vendor either as a paid entity or getting kick backs to create positive posts has become too common and are not easily detected. I guess their SB account can get locked if detected, but then its a game of whack a mole as they pop up with a new username. Then what? Sites like Wikipedia desperately try to remove these types of biased posts and changes, and it's an ongoing non-trivial battle.

I commend the mods for dealing with these issues.

 

[tbone1004]

There are several regular posters who seem like they may have an arrangement with the brand they support. I'm all for disclosing these arrangements. I would like to hope this notice is enough to prompt such disclosure. If not, more draconian measures may be needed.

so, one of the big things that impacts this discussion is something that wasn't at least mentioned in the first 14 pages that I read, and I'll try to read the rest tomorrow *temporarily in the UK for work so way ahead of everyone else*. The industry in general has a roughly 3 year turnover. Very few people last longer than that, especially in the technical side. On the recreational side, if you last more than that, you are either a strictly tourist diver who is unlikely to be an active poster on here, or likely to be affiliated with a dive shop. If the latter, then you are going to have gear biases based on what you have experienced and what the shop sells. This will typically be one shop/manufacturer. Perfect example of this is @Lake Hickory Scuba where Bryan is a Mares dealer and he fully discloses that and is quite open about why most of his gear is Mares. Key man discounts are the norm at this level and nothing secret in the industry

On the other side, you have the technical divers that are typically not associated with any individual dive shop or manufacturer. By this time, it is highly likely that relationships have been developed with certain shops and manufacturers just because of how few people there really are. Part of this means that no one essentially pays full price for gear, either through key man discounts, or "friends and family" type discounts, very rarely does anyone in this group actually get financial kick backs and if they do, you'll know pretty quickly. @Deep Six is a somewhat unique exception as they are trying to change the industry model, but I think they've done a decent job of making the information on the affiliate program open

I have three links in my signature. UWLD, Cave Adventurers, and Deep Sea Supply. I am not, nor have I ever been on any of their payrolls, but make it absolutely no secret that I have bias towards their products/services vs. other manufacturers and I have no issue answering questions on why because they are products I believe in. I truly believe that UWLD makes the best lights on the market, believe that Cave Adventurers offers some of the best resources for sidemount diving in the world, and that @cool_hardware52 truly changed my ability to safely and comfortably dive backmount on top of making some brilliant gear for reasonable prices.
Other companies like XS Scuba, Shearwater, Poseidon, Hollis, Deep6, HOG, and I know there are others but can't think of them are in a list of manufacturers that I am able to receive discounted gear and/or have received free gear/swag for different reasons. Every dive buddy that I regularly dive with has their own list of different manufacturers that we are able to avoid paying retail price with most manufacturers when we need/want something. If you have been in technical diving for over 5 years and don't have the ability to do that, then you are probably living under a rock or just haven't asked.

 

[cool_hardware52]

my point to Pete was that I do feel strongly that the ethically right thing to do is when people are getting a benefit for helping sell/promote/review items from a company they should disclose the relationship.

In fact it's US law that when somebody gets free product for review that they do in fact disclose.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, just saw Pete mentioned me and your reply

Pete still hasn't answered my question as to why you would be unhappy, as he quite clearly posted you were. I never implied that Deep6 was engaged in anything objectionable.

I'm pleased to see we hold similar views regarding disclosure and avoidance of corrupting practices.

Tobin

 

[kelemvor]

This thread has totally gone off track.

I reported it yesterday. Hopefully the mods will find the time to split the DSS discussion into a separate thread soon.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You're being tiresome and puerile. He's pointed to your behavior in this very thread. WHAT MORE EVIDENCE IS NEEDED?

Er, ah well, how about specific evidence? So far all I've seen is vague references and silly attachments.

How about a quote or two that supports this baseless claim?

However for you to think most divers need your unsolicited advice is ridiculous at best.

Short of being appointed to a newly created Cabinet level "Secretary of Mandatory Scuba Advice" I'm still unclear how anyone could achieve such a goal. That and the fact that the actual discussion of scuba gear / and actual diving has been almost entirely absent from this thread.

Tobin