The Ethics of Full Disclosure on ScubaBoard

[ScubaWithTurk]

I'm someone who is merely a customer when it comes to scuba. Personally, I think that the relationship you describe between Deep Six and yourself is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see mentioned in your bio or preferably signature line. I tend to have a favorable opinion of Deep6 based on my experiences with the guy when he was with another well regarded company, but I digress... I think you should disclose the relationship in an easy to find location.

While I would normally agree with this, the rest of @RainPilot 's post states "By removing that link, I now have nothing to gain from a referral so hopefully that will un-muddy the waters."

I agree with this fully. He can't receive compensation for anything if he doesn't supply the link that would let Deep Six know how a customer found them and in turn allow them to push the commissions to him.

If he doesn't post the link there is no financial gain from a positive review and therefore, IMO, is just like if I were to post a review of a product.

BTW, I have run across the Deep Six people on more than one occasion and I can tell you that from how they treat customers (I am not one but have read many threads about this and know some of their customers), how they have treated me as a possible future customer ( I am leaning towards getting a pair of their fins) and all the reviews I have read on their product, they are a business I would be happy to give my money to and I know for a fact I will one day buy something from them just based on how they conduct themselves in a public forum.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I never *ever* *once* said most divers need my advice. Oddly I do get 2-3 emails or calls most days from diver's specifically seeking my advice. I've provided detailed responses to 3 so far today. I typically spend 20-40 minutes with those considering a BP&W. Some become customers, some do not. I'm entirely OK with that. One guy today wanted to make sure I could furnish: A quick release harness, chest strap, waist pockets, a longer corrugated hose, and shoulder and back pads, he's also paranoid about crotch straps, but hates BC's that ride up at the surface. Oh and he's pretty sure he needs "lots of lift" He's never used a BP&W.

We don't do or recommend any of those things. I told him so, and why and cautioned him about trying to turn a BP&W back into a jacket BC by festooning it with extras.

No doubt I could have sold him, and numerous others all that stuff. Other vendors all offer every piece. We don't. I choose to offer qualified pre purchase advice about why one can dive without all that extra stuff.

I do a lot of atypical things. I routinely talk people "out" of gear that is either inappropriate for their application, or they don't yet know enough to make an informed choice. The classic example is the guy that has just finished BOW, and pictures himself diving the Doria in 18 months. He is ready to buy a Back Plate, Singles wing, doubles wing, a couple stage kits, 2 stainless finger spools, and a goodman handle thumb loop for a the can light he doesn't have yet.

Sure I could sell him all that stuff. What doubles wing should I recommend when He has no idea what exposure suit and tanks he will be diving *if* he ever makes the leap to doubles?

Am I doing him a favor to sell him expensive stainless steel finger spools when he's never used one, never shot a bag and will almost certainly lose the first 1-3 finger spools he will ever own? Would he better off learning with a couple cheap plastic ones?

Will he ever use the stage kits? Is it a good idea to sell those to a guy with no training? Is he going to start dragging a medium pressure faber 120 (minus ~7lb empty, and - 19 lbs full with a stage kit?) around the quarry with it rigged as a stage bottle so he will look tech? I mean after all he wanted them, don't I have a "obligation" to take his money and get out of the way?

Oh BTW, he needs to pay for all this stuff with 3 different credit cards, one in his girlfriend's name, one in mom's name and one in his ex girl friends name......

Once I arrogantly crush his dream for no reason other than my need to dominate will he still be interested in buying a simple BP&W from me? Maybe, maybe not, after all I failed to meet his every need. But that's OK, I'll still be at peace with my choices.

Tobin

You barely commented on my post (the first sentence) and the rest is you driving home some point that has nothing to do with what I said. I have no desire to have a fight or war of words with you. Although I do feel you should pay attention to how you treat people and possible customers.

Oh and please refrain from talking down to me like I am a child. I am a grown man, a Navy combat veteran and well respected, from what I am told, in the industry I currently work.

Sir, it is this "holier than thou" attitude that is turning people away and turned this thread into something much more than what it was originally intended (at least as far as I know because I know a person's intent from just reading a post). Your business and your right to act how you want but it is also our right to not buy your gear.

Have a wonderful rest of your day and as always, may you ascend every time you descend.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You barely commented on my post (the first sentence) and the rest is you driving home some point that has nothing to do with what I said

I elected to limit my response to your first claim, specifically that I somehow seek to impose my advice on most divers. That claim is so outrageous, and utterly false that whatever followed can be left to another post. I'd be quite happy to address the balance of your claims if you like.

For now I will simply again ask, can you provide a single shred of evidence that I seek to compel *anyone* to follow my unsolicited advice?

I'm admit that I'm a bit intrigued by the concept. If there is actually a (legal and moral) means of doing so it will revolutionize marketing............

Tobin

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Maybe, but I have the advantage of actually speaking with most of my customers, and at this point having sold many thousands of wings for 10+ years I get to see those that are returned for service. We occasionally see some pretty odd things grafted onto our wings, 26" hoses and combo Octo inflators etc., but the vast majority have the very same hose on them as the day they left here new in the box.

Sorry if that *fact* doesn't fit your script.

If it was cost effective for me to stock and sell longer hoses I might consider it, but it just isn't. If I did so all my customers would have to bear those added over head costs. This way only the folks that actually buy a longer hose do, and they will pay less for it at DGX than I'd have to charge.

I will say I'm a bit amused that you have such issues with me advising my customers, but you find it appropriate to tell me what to stock and offer for sale. Talk about arrogance.

Tobin

... most everyone I know who's ever bought one of your wings replaced the hose with a basic 16" one.

I have no issues at all with you advising your customers. It's not your message that's the problem ... it's the manner in which you choose to deliver it. You've provided ample examples of it right here in this thread ... as you usually do. Nor have I told you what to stock and offer for sale ... I've simply provided you some feedback as a customer, or more correctly, a former customer. Your response also clearly shows why I am a former customer ... as you've just demonstrated again by calling me arrogant.

I wish you no ill, Tobin. As I said, you make good products. But your personality makes it not worth the bother of doing business with you. It's a pity you've so consistently refused to hear that message ... I'm certain I'm not the only person you've ever heard it from.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

I elected to limit my response to your first claim, specifically that I somehow seek to impose my advice on most divers. That claim is so outrageous, and utterly false that whatever followed can be left to another post. I'd be quite happy to address the balance of your claims if you like.

For now I will simply again ask, can you provide a single shred of evidence that I seek to compel *anyone* to follow my unsolicited advice?

I'm admit that I'm a bit intrigued by the concept. If there is actually a (legal and moral) means of doing so it will revolutionize marketing............

Tobin

Again, you decide to be rude rather than address any issues with tact, respect and how a business owner should represent themselves in a public forum. You never stated outright that you offered unsolicited advice however you made a very specific point about a customers "pre-use *perception* " That comment can easily be taken to mean that you feel your customers do not know what they really need and that you have to tell them what they need.

Now you will say you never said anything of the sort but for someone who likes to play with words (like most of the trolls I see on forums) your words can be read just the way I stated. It is all in how one comprehends the message you have tried to relate. That being said you did quite the poor job of explaining what you meant which left the door open for interpretation.

All these posts and you still don't get it. I will leave at this...something my Grandfather used to tell me "A customer is not always right but a customer is always a customer and should be treated as such, especially prior to any purchase"

You sir, have treated me like someone whose business you don't need with regards to my posts here and I read that loud and clear.

Good look in your future endeavors.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You sir, have treated me like someone whose business you don't need with regards to my posts here and I read that loud and clear.

The needs and well being of my customers is my priority. Trying to be all things to all people is not.

The reality is no business can be all things to all people. I'm just bluntly up front about it.

Still waiting for you to provide the first piece of evidence to support you claim that I somehow want to impose my unsolicited advice on most divers.

My guess is it going to be a long wait.......

Tobin

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Tobin and I are probably complete polar opposites when it comes to ... Well, just about any subject. But I must say, I am in complete agreement with him here. He provides what he sees as a service. His service comes with parts. I provide a service. My service comes with an experience. He chooses his customers. I choose my customers. Most customers, Bob included, don't want what I offer. But at the end of the day, I am very satisfied with my offering, I feel that my offering is the best I can offer within the bounds of industry standards, safety, and enjoyment. I am not offended that Bob doesn't want what I offer, and I am more than happy to help him find something that suits his requirements, as Tobin does with Bob. I would much rather send someone to a competitor and make all 3 of us happy than have someone come and make 2 of us miserable.

Totally different situation ... you simply don't offer a product or service I would be interested in buying. You've been upfront about the way you run your business, which I respect. Based on what you have told me, we wouldn't be a good match ... therefore there's no reason for me to want to purchase what you're offering, nor any reason for you to want to sell it to me. What I have never seen you do is disrespect a customer or potential customer.

Completely different circumstance from Tobin ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

My guess is it going to be a long wait.......

Tobin

Just as long as a wait as it will take for you to be respectful and less of a know-it-all. Thank you for confirming my original belief that I should never spend a single cent with your company.

Yet another great thing about this board...I get to have interactions with manufacturers and can decide, based on those interactions, who to spend money with as opposed to walking into a LDS and dropping cash without knowing the slightest thing about a company, the owner(s) and it's employees.

If someone rubs me the wrong way, comes off as an elitist or is generally rude, I chose to not do business with them. That is for my passions like scuba as well as my daily work life.

 

[The Chairman]

Sorry if that *fact* doesn't fit your script.

What script? You're being given an incredible gift: Feedback from a customer you lost. Why would you treat this as garbage? Why are you fighting it rather than learning from it? You lost me in the same way. I was often embarrassed when I sent people your way by the tales they told me afterwards. You made me look bad and I found myself apologizing for and justifying your baditude. I still send people your way, but not as many and I caution them to avoid you and just buy the gear.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”

Here's the problem: you take any criticism as a "personal attack". You rant and rave, telling us how it just can't be so rather than thinking on it for a bit. Rather than use it as a way to improve, you take it way too personally. Why am I so harsh? You haven't ever listened to me about this. Again I defer to Churchill:

If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time – a tremendous whack.

Meh. I still won't get through to you with this. I'm not your enemy. I'm just very disappointed in your approach with people.

Tobin and I are probably complete polar opposites when it comes to .

You're opposites here as well. I've even seen you roll your eyes when the subject of DSS has come up on your boat. I think I remember what you said as well, but I'll leave that out here. You're the master and commander of your vessel, but I don't see you having the same approach to people that Tobin has.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

You're opposites here as well. I've even seen you roll your eyes when the subject of DSS has come up on your boat. I think I remember what you said as well, but I'll leave that out here. You're the master and commander of your vessel, but I don't see you having the same approach to people that Tobin has.

I have to agree that from what I have seen of @Wookie here, the two could not be further apart when it comes to how they treat people.

I have respect for Wookie that I gained from reading his posts and comments to others. Oh and if you can't tell, respect is a big issue for me as is being shown lack of respect. Navy through and through!