The Ethics of Full Disclosure on ScubaBoard

[cool_hardware52]

... a longer inflator hose for my wing ... I ended up purchasing it from Dive Gear Express.

You and I both know I'm far from the only person who's made such a request of you, only to be told "you don't need it". I didn't ask you what I needed ... I told you what I wanted. Since you wouldn't sell it to me, I went elsewhere.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, We often don't have longer hoses in stock. I'd guess 40-50% of our users ask for a longer hose. The hoses we furnish are indeed much shorter than the hose found on the typical BC. My routine advise is to use the hose we furnish and see if it is really "too short" The vast majority eventually decide the hose we furnished is great, they just didn't know it. A few don't. We routinely direct them to DGX if they want a longer hose. We can't compete price wise on DGX on none stock hose length that we might only sell a handful of per year. DGX does a great job on these sorts of accessories.

Tobin

 

[The Chairman]

SB is the best world wide forum for active divers and those who are interested in diving.

Dude, I love you. I'll be sure to get that commission check in the mail to you soon! Like Chris, you've been an early adopter of SB and what we have to offer. You make all this worthwhile.

 

[kelemvor]

I forgot to mention in my last post that yep, I wholeheartedly agree with
@boulderjohn 's original post here. It would be nice, but of course would require honesty from salesmen. We know all salesmen are honest so I'm sure it will happen.

In other news, I have a bridge just south of St. Petersburg that I can sell you for a bargain!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, We often don't have longer hoses in stock. I'd guess 40-50% of our users ask for a longer hose. The hoses we furnish are indeed much shorter than the hose found on the typical BC. My routine advise is to use the hose we furnish and see if it is really "too short" The vast majority eventually decide the hose we furnished is great, they just didn't know it. A few don't. We routinely direct them to DGX if they want a longer hose. We can't compete price wise on DGX on none stock hose length that we might only sell a handful of per year. DGX does a great job on these sorts of accessories.

Tobin

If that high a percentage of people are asking for something, you'd think perhaps it wouldn't be that onerous to offer it as an option ... rather than making them go source a third party and pay extra for it. You and I had talks about this long ago, and you refused to listen. Refusing to listen to your customers is a great way to lose business, however "principled" you believe yourself to be. You're not just marketing to new divers who need and appreciate your advice.

But even so, the explanation above would go over way, way better than all this "bruised ego" nonsense you tend to fall back on. It isn't about ego ... it's about business. I didn't make an uninformed request ... I know VERY WELL what works for me and what doesn't, far more than you do. Over the years I've sent dozens ... if not hundreds ... of divers your way, because as I said earlier your products are high quality and they work very well for Puget Sound conditions. But a surprisingly high percentage of those people came back to me with comments about how hard you were to deal with, and despite the fact that they really wanted to buy your products, they often decided to go elsewhere.

Not everyone wants or needs your "advice" ... some of us have been around long enough to know what we want and why we want it. It doesn't really matter whether or not you think it's the "right" choice for us. But clearly you think we're too stupid to be trusted with our own safety ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

If that high a percentage of people are asking for something, you'd think perhaps it wouldn't be that onerous to offer it as an option ..

Here we differ. A high percentage have a pre-use *perception* that they need a longer hose. The vast majority have a post use epiphany that they do not.

For the very small numbers that conclude they do need a longer hose DGX remains a cheaper option that what it would cost us to stock a wide selection of hoses.

BTW, what is your actual practical experience manufacturing, stocking, providing pre purchase advice, and post purchase customer service for any product?

Tobin

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Here we differ. A high percentage have a pre-use *perception* that they need a longer hose. The vast majority have a post use epiphany that they do not.

Not in my experience ... which is substantial in the Puget Sound area. Way more just go do what I did, and buy a longer hose from a third party ... they just don't bother telling you about it.

But that's just one example. Maybe you're unaware of how much business you've lost by being the way you are ... more likely it's what you say, that you just don't care.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

Not in my experience ... which is substantial in the Puget Sound area. Way more just go do what I did, and buy a longer hose from a third party ... they just don't bother telling you about it

Maybe, but I have the advantage of actually speaking with most of my customers, and at this point having sold many thousands of wings for 10+ years I get to see those that are returned for service. We occasionally see some pretty odd things grafted onto our wings, 26" hoses and combo Octo inflators etc., but the vast majority have the very same hose on them as the day they left here new in the box.

Sorry if that *fact* doesn't fit your script.

If it was cost effective for me to stock and sell longer hoses I might consider it, but it just isn't. If I did so all my customers would have to bear those added over head costs. This way only the folks that actually buy a longer hose do, and they will pay less for it at DGX than I'd have to charge.

I will say I'm a bit amused that you have such issues with me advising my customers, but you find it appropriate to tell me what to stock and offer for sale. Talk about arrogance.

Tobin

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

Here we differ. A high percentage have a pre-use *perception* that they need a longer hose. The vast majority have a post use epiphany that they do not.

For the very small numbers that conclude they do need a longer hose DGX remains a cheaper option that what it would cost us to stock a wide selection of hoses.

BTW, what is your actual practical experience manufacturing, stocking, providing pre purchase advice, and post purchase customer service for any product?

Tobin

You mention a customer's "perception" as you call it. I understand making sure the customer gets what they really need and not just what they think they need. However for you to think most divers need your unsolicited advice is ridiculous at best. If they want a longer hose, that is what they want. I will continue with this point below...

Not in my experience ... which is substantial in the Puget Sound area. Way more just go do what I did, and buy a longer hose from a third party ... they just don't bother telling you about it.

But that's just one example. Maybe you're unaware of how much business you've lost by being the way you are ... more likely it's what you say, that you just don't care.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob stated you may be unaware of the business you are losing. I believe every business should know where they are losing sales and actively work to fill those holes or customer needs. Having said that, I think his second part of that sentence that rings true..that you just don't care. That is quite evident by me posting that I would never buy from you based on this thread and other posts I have seen.

As a businessman who not only sells but has a manufacturing background (ran an Air Force machine shop for AFRL and AFIT plus worked for a company designing and machining medical implants) and an inventory and shipping and receiving background..if I had a possible future customer saying things like this I would reach out to them and have a discussion with them in hopes of gaining a customer. However not only have you ignored my posts, which is your right to do so, you keep pressing the issue here making it seem even worse to the random eyes that may be watching this thread. BTW, there have been 136 replies to this thread and 3,943 views. You seem to have zero knowledge about how to develop a customer base, how to retain said base and how to gain a larger market share. Either that or you just just don't care and I find that deplorable and a disservice to any people you employee.

 

[Wookie]

Tobin and I are probably complete polar opposites when it comes to ... Well, just about any subject. But I must say, I am in complete agreement with him here. He provides what he sees as a service. His service comes with parts. I provide a service. My service comes with an experience. He chooses his customers. I choose my customers. Most customers, Bob included, don't want what I offer. But at the end of the day, I am very satisfied with my offering, I feel that my offering is the best I can offer within the bounds of industry standards, safety, and enjoyment. I am not offended that Bob doesn't want what I offer, and I am more than happy to help him find something that suits his requirements, as Tobin does with Bob. I would much rather send someone to a competitor and make all 3 of us happy than have someone come and make 2 of us miserable.

My employees know that about me. They sometimes choose to leave my employ, which is a beautiful advantage of living in a free market. Sometimes I am sad they left, sometimes I am happy, but one of the rules of employment is that the market will settle out and I will hire another employee.

But at the end of the day, I can look at myself in the mirror and be satisfied that I did everything in my power to make myself happy, make my customer happy (sometimes by refusing their wishes), and make the crew happy, because making any of them miserable leads to hurt feelings and a distinct lack of repeat business.

Am I saying that Tobin doesn't need to be a little more gentile? Not at all, but at the end of the day, we can't sell our soul for profit. My soul is worth more to me than a few measly dollars.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You mention a customer's "perception" as you call it. I understand making sure the customer gets what they really need and not just what they think they need. However for you to think most divers need your unsolicited advice is ridiculous at best.

I never *ever* *once* said most divers need my advice. Oddly I do get 2-3 emails or calls most days from diver's specifically seeking my advice. I've provided detailed responses to 3 so far today. I typically spend 20-40 minutes with those considering a BP&W. Some become customers, some do not. I'm entirely OK with that. One guy today wanted to make sure I could furnish: A quick release harness, chest strap, waist pockets, a longer corrugated hose, and shoulder and back pads, he's also paranoid about crotch straps, but hates BC's that ride up at the surface. Oh and he's pretty sure he needs "lots of lift" He's never used a BP&W.

We don't do or recommend any of those things. I told him so, and why and cautioned him about trying to turn a BP&W back into a jacket BC by festooning it with extras.

No doubt I could have sold him, and numerous others all that stuff. Other vendors all offer every piece. We don't. I choose to offer qualified pre purchase advice about why one can dive without all that extra stuff.

I do a lot of atypical things. I routinely talk people "out" of gear that is either inappropriate for their application, or they don't yet know enough to make an informed choice. The classic example is the guy that has just finished BOW, and pictures himself diving the Doria in 18 months. He is ready to buy a Back Plate, Singles wing, doubles wing, a couple stage kits, 2 stainless finger spools, and a goodman handle thumb loop for a the can light he doesn't have yet.

Sure I could sell him all that stuff. What doubles wing should I recommend when He has no idea what exposure suit and tanks he will be diving *if* he ever makes the leap to doubles?

Am I doing him a favor to sell him expensive stainless steel finger spools when he's never used one, never shot a bag and will almost certainly lose the first 1-3 finger spools he will ever own? Would he better off learning with a couple cheap plastic ones?

Will he ever use the stage kits? Is it a good idea to sell those to a guy with no training? Is he going to start dragging a medium pressure faber 120 (minus ~7lb empty, and - 19 lbs full with a stage kit?) around the quarry with it rigged as a stage bottle so he will look tech? I mean after all he wanted them, don't I have a "obligation" to take his money and get out of the way?

Oh BTW, he needs to pay for all this stuff with 3 different credit cards, one in his girlfriend's name, one in mom's name and one in his ex girl friends name......

Once I arrogantly crush his dream for no reason other than my need to dominate will he still be interested in buying a simple BP&W from me? Maybe, maybe not, after all I failed to meet his every need. But that's OK, I'll still be at peace with my choices.

Tobin