"Term limits" on certifications

[drbill]

My point to Dr. Bill is THAT THERE ARE SELF REGULATED ENTITIES IN EXISTENCE DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE PROPOSES, SPECIFICALLY, GUE AND DIR....

True to form, you and he are saying that there is only one way to dive ... the "safe" way, the DIR way, the GUE way....

However, by completely going the ways that Dr. Bill and GUE/DIR suggests, the dive will shrink community to a small cadre of "buff" DIR types.

WOW... I'm amazed at this. I don't think anyone in their right mind would equate me with DIR/GUE (although they raise a number of good points). Very interesting.

I make no point about the "right" way to dive. What I do make a point about is ensuring that people who do dive (using whatever style they wish, DIR or my typical flailing around) are prepared to do so in terms of experience and conditioning.

I always find it interesting when I seem to be on the "other" side of an argument due to people holding diametrically opposed viewpoints to my own. I have learned much from this particular thread. From that standpoint it has been worthwhile. That many SB members (at least those posting here) seem against the type of "logical" (IMHO) and self-imposed regulation I suggested has been revealing. Hmmm.

Dr. Bill

 

[lamont]

That many SB members (at least those posting here) seem against the type of "logical" (IMHO) and self-imposed regulation I suggested has been revealing. Hmmm.

I think you've gotten quite a lot of agreement over the root issues (under-experienced divers), we just differ widely on political tactics which isn't really surprising... The hardest part of my job isn't finding problems to solve, but its figuring out how to solve those problems in ways that are politically feasable, and trying to get honest consensus is almost futile. Most of the time we can't even agree on where to get lunch if there's more than a few people...

 

[Chad_Ordelheide]

I have learned much from this particular thread. From that standpoint it has been worthwhile. That many SB members (at least those posting here) seem against the type of "logical" (IMHO) and self-imposed regulation I suggested has been revealing. Hmmm.

Dr. Bill

I don't think any one is against Self-imposed regulation... Wouldn't a self impossed regulation be the same is using your own best judgement? If the answer is no, then it really isn't "Self" impossed. If it's yes, then that brings us back to the beginning where most agree; not all divers have good judgment! Thus the discussion!!!

 

[shaggie]

Who's going to be the logbook stamp police? Maybe other places differ, but I don't see instructors or DMs hanging about pen in hand just waiting to stamp a logbook where I am. Real world -- you get somewhere, dive, shoot the breeze, head home, store gear, log your dives off the computer.
There's a fundamental honor system at play (thank God). I don't look forward to throwing $ at someone to sign a logbook, nor to keep renewing. Perhaps places that sell air or run dive excursions could take a look-see at a logbook once in a while, rather than just ask to see the card? I personally wouldn't mind if someone who doesn't know me wishes to see it before selling gas or taking me on a given dive, to get a feel for what I've done.

I agree with you, while it may be fool hardy to jump into the pond after along inactive period, it would be difficult at best to police logbooks. I have over 50 dives logged and very few stamps. I don't plan on going for DM or ID certs, so why bother. Am I the only one who has been on a dive boat where a single diver with "hunderds or dives" in his log book turned out to be a whack job? Well there's my 2 cents.

 

[Dragon2115]

[rant]

Totally impractical and unnecessary. As was pointed out, lets not create a problem just for the sake of solving a problem. We're talking 90 deaths per year. What is that by comparison to other activities, such as skiing for example? And statistically how much is that 90 when it is worked out as number of deaths per 100,000 dives? What was that statistic 20 years ago? There's a good chance that the number hasn't actually changed that much, but that perception has. Twenty years ago we didn't learn of nearly every diving death on the planet within hours of it occurring, now we do. With more people diving there will inevitably be more accidents and with them more fatalities. However did the overall accident or death rate per 100,000 RECREATIONAL dives change? (Tech dives really should be excluded as a seperate statistic due to its very nature.) After all, THAT is the true statistical measure of the safety of the sport. That is how most other statistics such as crime are reported.

Folks have said that they're tired of all the diving fatalities and that the numbers are getting too high and therefore we need to clamp down and have recertification sort of like drivers licenses. Funny that happened to be brought up. I just renewed my drivers license the other day, online! Yup, that means I won't have seen the inside of an RMV office for 10 years. I won't even have to show proof that I've been driving, ever, in order to renew my license. I will never have to go through another road test to prove competancy behind the wheel for the rest of my life under current law. My grandmother had her license for forty some odd years, and luckily for everyone around her, drove a car only twice in her entire life.

The initial requirements are routinely compromised all the time as well. A lady i work with recently took her son for his road test. He made a bad decision, pulled out into traffic abruptly cutting off a car in the process and very nearly causing an accident. Iow, he FAILED!!! So, what does the registry cop do? He asks Ma what she wants to do and leaves the decision on whether he gets his license or not to her. And as a result we have another bad driver on the road who has already had his first accident.

Basically the license process is a crank 'em out as fast as possible business, just like some of the OW classes folks are complaining about today. For the state it's a giant revenue stream. Awhile ago the governor proposed eliminating the license renewal fee, the legislature almost had a seizure over it, and needless to say it didn't happen. The same thing will happen with diving. What will start out as good intentions will end up as nothing more than a cash cow for certifying agencies.

[/rant]

 

[MikeFerrara]

Look to the statistics presented earlier that graphically indicate obesity is a major factor in dive-related deaths. MANY of the deaths recorded here in Catalina waters, especially at the Dive Park, were obese divers out of shape for such an activity so the overall statistics are very similar to my anecdotal experience here on Catalina.

Dr. Bill

You're an educated guy and should know better. The DAN number do nothing to establish a correlation or any kind of variable dependance...It's raw data with no number crunching like significance testing done.

I read somehwere that nearly 100% of all injured divers were wearing fins at the time of injury. The obvious concludion is that we need to ditch the fins?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Scubafool... what you are failing to recognize is that when these ill-prepared or conditioned divers experience a problem, there are often other divers who must attempt to come to their aid. If you have an accident or equipment failure in our dive park on Catalina, you would undoubtedly have other divers attempt to come to your rescue.

Now if they attempted to rescue you, as an experienced (I assume) diver, you might respond well and create no danger to your rescuers. However an inexperienced and/or obese diver may panic and take the rescuer down with them.

Some of us are OBLIGED to respond to a diver in trouble either by our certifications or by our ethical systems.

Dr. Bill

red herring. I've performed a number of rescues and was never in any danger. The first rule of rescue is not to make things worse by becomming a victem. If you can't search for, surface or tow a diver without undo risk then don't do it or train/practice more for it.

There are tons and tons of absolutely terrible divers in the lakes, rivers and oceans and there's pretty much nothing they can do to hurt me unless I make the mistake of picking one for a buddy...and even then it would take some pretty drastic circumstances for then to be of any real danger to me (like a total equipment failure where I can't get to the surface and they aren't around)

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have to have my CA state driver's license renewed every so often. It is probably to ensure that I am not a threat to OTHER drivers, more than to protect me. Of course driving the LA freeways is a lot more dangerous than most activities I undertake.

Such a strong anti-government bias as well. Hmmm.

Dr. Bill

I don't know what you have to do to renew your drivers license but I take a vision test and write a check. There are lots of lousy drivers on the road and any idiot can pass the drivers test and you can do it barely being able to control a vehicle...it just isn't much of a test.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Bill, as you note, certification cards should expire, as should instructor cards. GUE has done that since inception. I periodically teach at Casino Point, and did so as recently as a few weeks ago, and I'm constantly amazed at the poor quality of instruction I see routinely displayed at that park. Truckloads [or ferry loads in the instant case] lined up, overweighted, planted on their knees while the instructor goes down the list of his slate and goes skill by skill. I mean basically the class is to have a DM set the float, the students pull themselves down the float and then spends the rest of the dive on their knees doing a few skills and then they come right up the float line. More often then not the class never even swims.. This is what passes for "certification", and then that c-card is good for the rest of that divers life, irrespective of whether or not that diver ever enters the water again, 40 years from now that same diver can show up on a boat and dive.. The industry is too afraid that if they take a stand that they'll loose customers so they regularly capitulate and allow the "customers" to dictate terms. In my mind, the customer is always right approach has no place in dive instruction..

And what good would it do to have certifications like that expire when the problem is that they never should have been issued in the first place.

Remember, I can by a compressor and a boat. Certifications aren't licenses. agencies should sell training not permission to dive.

I wish when I was in Grad school, or studying for the CPA exam that I could have dictated the terms by which I wanted to dillute the process, it would have saved a heck of a lot of studying ;-)

Regards

Does your degree expire every couple of years? It's a certificate of successful completion as is a dive certification. Having it expire makes no sense unless it's a license.

Not in this life or any other will any training agency have any authority over me. I will dictate the terms underwhich I'm willing to work because I'm the guy with the money. I pay for training, you provide it and then our business and relationship is ended uinless I have further use of you in which case I'll call.

 

[grazie42]

The only thing I disagree about with the "no regulation"-camp is that we/you aren´t getting stuck with the bill for other divers mistakes...
Depending on what country you live in the extent to which you pay for others mistakes differ but in the end we always pay "some" for all accidents...

One issue is healthcare (for those who manage to survive their ordeals)...depending on the system where you live you´ll pay these costs either thru taxes or insurance costs...
EMR...sooner or later a guy/gal in some kind of uniform will be required to show up to take care of the remains or to treat a patient...these people too are payed either thru taxes or insurance...

YOUR coverage from insurance...If you´re an OW diver this is usually not a problem as most "standard insurances" where I live cover dives to 30m and in OW, REGARDLESS of your certification (or lack of one)...If you want to do overhead or deep-diving you´re screwed unless you pay for it...DAN may be a way to get around this cheap but its still an added expense...

So...to make a long story short...We are ALL already paying for other divers mistakes (to some degree) and every incident DOES increase that cost even if it´s such a small increase that we don´t notice it...

I´m not really for further regulation either as I believe in personal responsibility but to belive that I´m not paying a price for that stance would be to delude myself...