"Term limits" on certifications

[scubafool]

I have a license to fly an airplane. It is issued once for life just like my PADI c-card the difference is that in order to fly I need three things

1) The license
2) Recent experiance, That is a certain number of take offs and landsing within the last 90 days
3) A valid medical certificate (good for up to a year)

Applying the airplane model to scuba would be straight forward.

About #2. If I lack recent experiance I then hire an instructor to go with me untill s/he signs me off as being compentent to fly again..

If I were a pilot flying an airplane, and for whatever reason, I crashed my airplane into a boat that you were on, we both would probably die.

If I were a driver driving a vehicle down the road, and for whatever reason I crashed into a vehicle that you were in, we both might die.

If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I crashed into a boat that you were on, you would probably live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I held my breath at the same time that I experienced an uncontrolled ascent, you would live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I ran out of air at 83', you would live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason.........

Get the point that I am attempting to make? I am not your brother, you are not mine, therefore we are not each other's keeper.

 

[drbill]

Scubafool... what you are failing to recognize is that when these ill-prepared or conditioned divers experience a problem, there are often other divers who must attempt to come to their aid. If you have an accident or equipment failure in our dive park on Catalina, you would undoubtedly have other divers attempt to come to your rescue.

Now if they attempted to rescue you, as an experienced (I assume) diver, you might respond well and create no danger to your rescuers. However an inexperienced and/or obese diver may panic and take the rescuer down with them.

Some of us are OBLIGED to respond to a diver in trouble either by our certifications or by our ethical systems.

Dr. Bill

 

[lamont]

Scubafool... what you are failing to recognize is that when these ill-prepared or conditioned divers experience a problem, there are often other divers who must attempt to come to their aid. If you have an accident or equipment failure in our dive park on Catalina, you would undoubtedly have other divers attempt to come to your rescue.

Now if they attempted to rescue you, as an experienced (I assume) diver, you might respond well and create no danger to your rescuers. However an inexperienced and/or obese diver may panic and take the rescuer down with them.

Some of us are OBLIGED to respond to a diver in trouble either by our certifications or by our ethical systems.

Dr. Bill

You are also trained that when you can't render aid without putting yourself at risk, to not render aid.

 

[scubafool]

I don't believe that I am failing to recognize that other divers will come to my aid. I question, though, whether I am responsible to those divers who might come to my rescue. The above statement might come off way wrong, but if I fly my plane into your boat, I take away your personal choice as to whether or not to be placed in danger. If I get into a bad spot diving, and would die if you don't come to my aid, you are still able to make the choice to assist me or not, as you see fit. If a certification were to REQUIRE me to assist a fellow diver in such a predicament, I would question the wisdom of obtaining such a certification. Indeed, what certification could you hold that would obligate you to help, no matter the risk?

Ethically? I think that placed in such a situation, I would attempt to help the distressed diver until I felt that further rescue attempts would place me at significantly elevated risk. If your ethical standards require more of you, you have my respect and appreciation. But in the end, your ethical standards are your own choice, and I can't agree with requiring more of others because you require more of yourself.

Most respectfully,

David

 

[scubafool]

You are also trained that when you can't render aid without putting yourself at risk, to not render aid.

ALMOST any method of rendering immediate assistance would place you at risk. The level of risk that you are willing to accept, however, is a personal choice, IMHO.

 

[redrover]

This attitude is something that sets us apart. While saddened you feel so, exactly my point, freedom to choose.
Oh well. I guess we'l have to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion. But I thought it was a good discussion (thank you) - thanks for letting me express my point of view. Well of course, it is your right. IMHO, everyone should think for themselves.
Have fun diving everyone. I do! And I wish you well too

. 2 conservative and my first real shore entrance and exit dives at a new site yesterday went very well. Only a handful of people on shore and no other divers, a most enjoyable holiday.

DiveGolfSki You didn't know that there is such a bill in congress ... the BIGBRO bill?

Actually, I did not want to risk TOS violation with statements regarding the current political….na, I cannot find words to adequately express my opinion.

PhotoJT] Hmm, an overweight, vacation diving woman in her 30's or a man in his 50's seem doomed.

I neglected to mention it looked to me (Post #38), in another 20 years I will be the least likely to die.

 

[drbill]

By the way... as an update to the original reason for creating this thread, I have heard reports that:

1. The divers may have been more experienced than the initial post suggested. I have heard that the male was a master diver and dove with a dry suit. This suggests more than just an infrequent diver.

2. Confusion over who actually effected the initial rescue- the off-duty fireman, two harbor patrolmen, or a visitor to the island.

As for rendering assistance, one often does not know the level of risk until one has "committed" to the attempt. Yes, a rescuer could (and should) back off IF it looks like the rescue attempt would put them in serious jeopardy. However, the phrasing of my original comments was that I am obliged to take action to rescue the individual (at least until my assessment of the situation suggests potential danger to myself).

I, for one, do NOT wish to be placed in that position by a diver with insufficient recent experience or one whose physical condition (usually but not always a personal choice) leads to the need for a rescue attempt.

Dr. Bill

 

[gypsyjim]

Diving can be dangerous, although it need not be any more so than any other sport. We the divers and the industries that support and train divers must police ourselves before others outside our sport decide to do it to us. Teaching skills thouroughly takes time and patience, and sadly not every instructor is conciencious, and some are down right mercenary. The certification process is the place to start, because right from the start those skills and good safety training, with an emphasis on continually maintaining and updating those skills, is the answer. My children are currently enrolled in a very good local PADI OW course, taught by a highly motivated man I have a lot of respect for, and when he is through with them they will be reasonably skilled. They will also know that their training is only a beginning. At best there is a limit to what you can learn in a couple weekends, and unless the agencies doing the certification are more stringent in who is teaching and the quality of that instruction, we will face knee jerk legal restrictions that will hurt the sport. LDS and dive operators also have the responsiblity to ensure that divers they are dealing with have basic, current knowledge/skills, before they rent, sell or guide, and many do that already. Recently I have had to show my skill level several times, when diving with dive operators who did not know me, even with my c card and log book, and I would like to see this become a common practice. When I was a lot younger and less wise (means I had less scars then) BCD's were something novel and with no training on them at all, I was foolish enough to think I understood the process, and I was able to go into a LDS and rent this newer equipment by simply showing my card. No questions asked. Mostly through my own stupidity, but with the willing cooperation of that dive shop I nearly made myself a statistic. It is up to us, the divers themselves, to police ourselves. I do not want some polititian who has no love or understanding of this sport to do it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If I were a pilot flying an airplane, and for whatever reason, I crashed my airplane into a boat that you were on, we both would probably die.

If I were a driver driving a vehicle down the road, and for whatever reason I crashed into a vehicle that you were in, we both might die.

If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I crashed into a boat that you were on, you would probably live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I held my breath at the same time that I experienced an uncontrolled ascent, you would live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason, I ran out of air at 83', you would live. If I were a diver diving, and for whatever reason.........

Get the point that I am attempting to make? I am not your brother, you are not mine, therefore we are not each other's keeper.

There would be some merit to this line of reasoning were it not for surviving family members and their lawyers.

If you were a diver who experienced an uncontrolled ascent while holding your breath, and I had been your instructor at any time (even years ago), a lawyer could easily make me pay thousands to defend myself, even if he didn't win the case.

In America, random acts of stupidity are not necessarily the fault of the person perpetrating them ... they're usually the fault of the person with the least competent lawyer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mels_2]

Now if they attempted to rescue you, as an experienced (I assume) diver, you might respond well and create no danger to your rescuers. However an inexperienced and/or obese diver may panic and take the rescuer down with them.

can i ask why it makes a difference if the person is obese or not? A paniced person regardless of ones wieght or experience would take you down. My 35 lb 6 yr old paniced daughter at the surface pushes me under and I have a hard time moving with her clinging to my neck. Luckily for us I don't go to far out with her.