Question Tech Instructor Perspective: teaching in USA or in Mexico?

[berndo]

In most of Europe you don't have to pay for health insurance, disability insurance isnt something you need to self-fund, and you arent trying to squirrel away a pension either. 100K sounds like a ton of money in MX sure - but remember there is zero safety net there. Get hurt on your dream diving job and your hospital bill might not be that awful. But if you can't return to work or need long term care because you're disabled you're SOL in a big way without significant cash and investment reserves.

No, dude. It's a lot of money in Europe too. Over 100k (Euro) is like a top 10% income in Germany.
Here you have to pay health insurance, retirement, disablity etc. too. It's not a tax payer financed system, I'm paying all of these directly. I don't know about other countries but it's actually an eff ton we're paying.

AFAIK, even in the tax payer financed systems it's not free and you basically end up in the projects if you don't get extra insurance and something happens.

 

[L13]

I don't understand why so many people spend so much energy debating a non-diver from a planet that has no open water.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

@berndo actually often makes very good points, if only he communicated in a less cocky way, then more people would have listened

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Continuing the OT discussion: I think @rjack321 's point is that bankruptcy due to medical bills is higher in the United States:

A quick google search with seemingly legitimate websites support this statement:

Health Care Costs Number One Cause of Bankruptcy for American Families | ABI

www.abi.org

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-93430900525-7/fulltext

Since Germany is being discussed this report is interesting:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/12/14/1142601526/lessons-from-germany-to-help-solve-the-u-s-medical-debt-crisis

But Germany has long done something the U.S. does not: It strictly limits how much patients have to pay out of their own pockets for a trip to the doctor, the hospital or the pharmacy.

But Germany does face some problems: One in three German hospitals faces bankruptcy

I question the legitimacy of this website Medical Bankruptcies Statistics - 2023 Update, as the link provided for information in Germany is broken.

I could give anecdotal evidence from my cousin who is a doctor in Germany, but unless he were to provide me with statistics for the country, it would be just his statistically insignificant perception.

In my native Holland, it is my understanding (and I'd let my fellow Dutch divers correct me, as this is just what my father told me) is that you either have a simple payer program with the government or private insurance (through your employer).

Anyway, I always recommend doing some basic research for statistics before making claims. Even though I specified "in Europe" this search mostly discusses the US: bankruptcy statistics due to medical bills in europe - Google Suche

But anywho, back to the normal ScubaBoard bickering.

 

[rjack321]

No, dude. It's a lot of money in Europe too. Over 100k (Euro) is like a top 10% income in Germany.
Here you have to pay health insurance, retirement, disablity etc. too. It's not a tax payer financed system, I'm paying all of these directly. I don't know about other countries but it's actually an eff ton we're paying.

AFAIK, even in the tax payer financed systems it's not free and you basically end up in the projects if you don't get extra insurance and something happens.

Look I'm never going to complain that any actual working person like a scuba instructor is "overpaid" If you dont like what the good ones are charging? Go find one of those el cheapo instructors.

You've already show you have no idea about gross vs net income... But 100k USD gross income is not some ridiculous fabulously rich diver life of leisure lifestyle even in MX.

 

[berndo]

You've already show you have no idea about gross vs net income... But 100k USD gross income is not some ridiculous fabulously rich diver life of leisure lifestyle even in MX.

I said turnover in the inital post.
keirentec said he takes off 3 month off to travel... so apparently it's not that bad.

If you dont like what the good ones are charging? Go find one of those el cheapo instructors.

Ah, so I recognize the good ones by what they're charging. Got it.
I'd be interesting to see what the actual difference is and if the instructor I took the last ccr class from is such a sh_t show compared to Ken.

BTW: I only made the last post because you seem to be under the impression that people get free stuff in Europe. There is no free stuff anywhere.

 

[Germie]

Ok, what do officeworkers earn? Here we have 40 hour workweeks. If you earn 4000-4500 euro a month, that is more than average here, the average monthly salary is way much lower. So without tax, 2500-3000 is left. But let's say you want to earn 3000 net, which is enough to live in most countries in Europe.

There are on average 22 workingdays in a month, so let's make it easy, 20. This means you will earn 150 euro a day. Costs to travel to work are 20 euro a day, so you have 130 euro a day left.
To finish university here with student depth of a cost of 20.000 euro is quite normal, so these 20.000 euro need to paid back from the salary of 130 euro a day.
Doing the instructor courses will costs probably less. But let's say it is the same (I don't talke about user levelcourses as you are no instructor yet, I don't talk here about courses to stay current as instructor).

If you want to teach diving and you want to have money for equipment replacement, some money for new courses to develop yourself, insurance, etc, what do you need to earn per day then?
The normal healthinsurance in my country is about 160 euro per month and is also paid form the 130 euro a day. So I only talk about the dive insurance for an instructor.
So what is a reasonable salary so you can also pay your investments needed to stay current as instructor and own good equipment?
How many tax do you pay over 500 dollar/euro in Mexico? how many days do you work in the instructor role every month? 20? Then if you get 250 euro a day after paying tax, you have 120 euro left per day for equipment, entrance fees, insurance, fuel, and courses to stay current. This is then 120*20 euro a month. Is this enough or not?

I know there are differences between working for a boss and being your own boss. But that is quite hard to make calculations in this topic for. I want to hold it simple. If you are a really self employee without a boss or company you work for, your insurance is higher than for the officeworkers. But the salary per hour also. This differs from 30 to 80 euro on average per hour. But to do some calculations, it is quite hard.

In Mexico, food and fuel are cheaper than in Europe or the USA. So daily costs are lower. So probably the average montly salary is also lower. Do instructors need to earn western wages or wages according to the country where they live?

 

[Wibble]

Dive instruction is just like any other small business. An "expert" instructor, such as for cave diving, has considerable overheads and should expect to earn a decent salary from their chosen profession.

Overheads come in different guises. They can be direct costs for running a single course such as kit, gas, lime, accommodation, expenses, travel. There's also many other business and professional overheads such as continual development for the instructor, publicity -- e.g. speaking engagements, travel, kit purchase and maintenance. Plus accounting charges, taxes, insurances, kit depreciation, sickness and holiday, etc.

Looking at a fee income of say $300/day is an extremely narrow view. No "expert" instructor is going to fee earn for 48 weeks/year, not without burning out. It's more likely to be one or two courses per month and not all will be 5 days either. 18 courses of 5 days = 90 days; at $300 that's just $27,000. Sure, that's assuming only $300/day. Even with 2 or 3 students per course that's still $50k to $75k.

It is from that fee income from which the overheads are taken. Only after that can the instructor be paid.

The fact is that nobody will ever get rich from teaching dive courses.

There is an element of "expert" dive instruction being a vocation, a calling or life choice. That's fine, but not in the long term -- unless you have private income.