Question Tech Instructor Perspective: teaching in USA or in Mexico?

[kierentec]

How much for actual instructor training and how much because you were doing it for fun and bought stuff you wanted? If I were to take cave instructor training, that wouldn't cost me anywhere near hundreds of thousands of dollars, right?
I've seen instructors count every expense including their OWD training and dive trips they did as investment into their instructor carreer.

Of course you can do it cheaper. For the bare minimum to become a cave instructor, after getting full cave trained and bare minimum amount of experience to meet agency standards, you can find someone to run an instructor course super cheap. Probably a couple grand for cavern through full. But that’s the problem. And people whose chose that path are probably the ones who sought cheap training to begin with, and will then offer cheap training, and the cycle continues to spiral down.

I look at every diving expense as an investment into my career. 8 different rebreathers over the years, multiple scooters, camera equipment, a new drysuit every 18 months, travel to various locations to build a more broad range of experience, and seeking out the best educators in the industry for my own education. It adds up, but it’s also what puts me in a far more comfortable position now that I’ve made those investments over the past 15 years. And now I can make a lot more time to do the fun/project diving for myself, which is also expensive, but adds more value to the classes I teach.

As for “dive trips” counting towards the overall investment, of course that counts. Just because it’s fun doesn’t mean it’s not building valuable experience. I think that’s the crux of the issue for a lot of people when they think recreational activities as jobs. “It’s a fun hobby for me, so it must not really much work for them”.

 

[DiveTucson]

I think $300-400 per day/student, 2 students minimum is reasonable depending on the course. Some courses cost more to run, ex. CCR, and should have a slightly higher cost.

My responses to you were based on your statement that you felt that was nuts and implying that instructors have a pretty easy work schedule.

Ken stop trying to bring reason to SB.

 

[berndo]

My responses to you were based on your statement that you felt that was nuts and implying that instructors have a pretty easy work schedule.

I said, it nuts to say 600 bucks per day is not enough. He said he was hoping that pay will "stabilize at a higher level".
I made the example with the workdays because he didn't seem to reaslise that you can make good money already for what it is... in my opinion.

Compared to alot of other jobs, I don't think it's a very tough schedule. Look at what doing shifts for nurses look like, for instance. You seem to think that being a dive instructor is an especially tough job with more hours than what other people do.
I used to have a job where we had to take 3 flights from Europe to the middle of nowhere China for one 12 hour meeting with pissed off people and fly back the next day.
Having to fly some place for a week to do a scuba class in shorts with people in a good mood in warm, clear water doesn't sound like a tough schedule to me.

I also don't think you can count project diving, exploration and non-instructor classes as work. Just IMHO.
I didn't say instructors are a bunch of lazy bums and don't deserve to get paid. I used to work 60-70 hour weeks, every week in season when I used to be a OW instructor. I know it's work.

 

[berndo]

As for “dive trips” counting towards the overall investment, of course that counts. Just because it’s fun doesn’t mean it’s not building valuable experience.

I think that's an odd way of looking at it.

My question was what the actual cave instructor training costs.

And people whose chose that path are probably the ones who sought cheap training to begin with, and will then offer cheap training, and the cycle continues to spiral down.

I don't believe that cost equals quality. There are a lot of people who train divers as a hobby in clubs. I don't think that makes them bad instructors. Usually, as in most other industries, the marketing determines what price you can ask, not the quality. Only because an instructor is well know and can charge a higher price doesn't make his training better.

 

[kensuf]

Compared to alot of other jobs, I don't think it's a very tough schedule. Look at what doing shifts for nurses look like, for instance. You seem to think that being a dive instructor is an especially tough job with more hours than what other people do.
I used to have a job where we had to take 3 flights from Europe to the middle of nowhere China for one 12 hour meeting with pissed off people and fly back the next day.
Having to fly some place for a week to do a scuba class in shorts with people in a good mood in warm, clear water doesn't sound like a tough schedule to me.

Wow, you had to go on a plane for a work meeting. Sounds grueling. I'm sure you flew coach the entire way and were underpaid for the efforts.

My day gig is in a field where we typically are on call 24x7 and work most holidays because that's the best time for upgrades. I've spent more Christmas and New Years eves in data centers than I have with my family.

Every job has it's ups and downs, don't martyr yourself.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

I said, it nuts to say 600 bucks per day is not enough. He said he was hoping that pay will "stabilize at a higher level".

I was the only student, and I ended up paying slightly less than the advertised price of $330, plus all other expenses (gas, tanks, cenote fees, a new light I rented to try, etc) were included. Even if I paid $330 per day, that's still not expensive considering how much time the instructor spent with me.

If we are talking about a class of 2-3 students, then things are different yes,

 

[berndo]

Wow, you had to go on a plane for a work meeting. Sounds grueling. I'm sure you flew coach the entire way and were underpaid for the efforts.

My day gig is in a field where we typically are on call 24x7 and work most holidays because that's the best time for upgrades. I've spent more Christmas and New Years eves in data centers than I have with my family.

Every job has it's ups and downs, don't martyr yourself.

I definately was underpaid and some planes only have coach.

You're arguing over stuff I never said. In the great scheme of things, I don't think working as a instructor is a tough job and I doubt many people would actually disagree with this.
I don't think 600 bucks a day is a low rate in Mexico. That's all I said in the initial post.

 

[rjack321]

So what should they be making? I think you're nuts. If they do 2 person classes and teach 15 days per month on average and take a whole month off. That's a 100 grand turnover per year. For being a dive instructor living in Mexico.
The so called tec classes have already gotten pretty pricey for what they are.
I don't think 9 to 5 or 6 is a long day. It's a normal work day and on the short side for many OW instructors.

A living wage wherever they are at. Some places like MX or SE Asia are cheaper than others and $300 day is reasonable, some extremely expensive like Switzerland, Anchorage, or Tokyo where $500 day is scrapping by.

$300 day for 10+ hr days, a whole bunch of "no pay but hustle for student time", buying and servicing your own supplies and equipment, with no health insurance, self-funding your own retirement account, disability insurance, liability insurance, facility/space rent, is not really a living wage in most places - despite being 100K/yr gross. Are you planning on working until you die? One bad DCS event (or multiple minor ones) and not only are you out of your immediate job, you may not be able to return to diving work at all.

 

[berndo]

A living wage wherever they are at. Some places like MX or SE Asia are cheaper than others and $300 day is reasonable, some extremely expensive like Switzerland, Anchorage, or Tokyo where $500 day is scrapping by.

$300 day for 10+ hr days, a whole bunch of "no pay but hustle for student time", buying and servicing your own supplies and equipment, with no health insurance, self-funding your own retirement account, disability insurance, liability insurance, facility/space rent, is not really a living wage in most places - despite being 100K/yr gross. Are you planning on working until you die? One bad DCS event (or multiple minor ones) and not only are you out of your immediate job, you may not be able to return to diving work at all.

I was assuming 600 per day. I don't know. Some of you guys might be from fancy or rich family backgrounds. I'm from a working class background. AFAIK, 100 grand for any kind of full time job is pretty good anywhere in Europe unless you're living in the fancy part of Paris or London.
Many people in construction, healthcare, etc. really work hard and put in many hours for way less. Everybody has to pay an eff ton of money for retirement and health insurance.

No offence meant to Ken but to me it's sounds crazy that someone expects to make 800 usd per day (400 each student) for scuba lessons. I honestly wonder how it would be so much better than the classes I have taken for 250 Euros per day.

 

[rjack321]

I was assuming 600 per day. I don't know. Some of you guys might be from fancy or rich family backgrounds. I'm from a working class background. AFAIK, 100 grand for any kind of full time job is pretty good anywhere in Europe unless you're living in the fancy part of Paris or London.
Many people in construction, healthcare, etc. really work hard and put in many hours for way less. Everybody has to pay an eff ton of money for retirement and health insurance.

No offence meant to Ken but to me it's sounds crazy that someone expects to make 800 usd per day (400 each student) for scuba lessons. I honestly wonder how it would be so much better than the classes I have taken for 250 Euros per day.

In most of Europe you don't have to pay for health insurance, disability insurance isnt something you need to self-fund, and you arent trying to squirrel away a pension either. 100K sounds like a ton of money in MX sure - but remember there is zero safety net there. Get hurt on your dream diving job and your hospital bill might not be that awful. But if you can't return to work or need long term care because you're disabled you're SOL in a big way without significant cash and investment reserves.