TDI GUE course differences

[sheck33]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


After PADI takes over that will be corrected.

:wacko: ut:

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...
I guess the one thing i have to just get past is the fact that most divers just dont care to become proficient and safe. Most divers just dont care they destroy reefs. And the mainstream dive industry will continue to serve them with c-cards.....;-0

Mike: why do you still teach PADI classes?

First off before I get to crazy here. There are some doing a good job it's just that they aren't the most successful and they're hard to find. Also, I don't know about the reefs but it's safe enough to keep the world happy.

Why am I still teaching. Well I haven't tought an OW water class since I raised the price to try to get well on all the pool time. Well that's not 100% accurate we had two small classes of referals through the winter. Believe it or not winter is usually our busy time in the pool. Now since I was stupid enough to think I could change the diving world and bet everything on it here are my choices...I can stick to my guns, loose everything and go down fighting and swearing I am right and everyone else is wrong...or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

 

[sheck33]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


First off before I get to crazy here. There are some doing a good job it's just that they aren't the most successful and they're hard to find. Also, I don't know about the reefs but it's safe enough to keep the world happy.

Why am I still teaching. Well I haven't tought an OW water class since I raised the price to try to get well on all the pool time. Well that's not 100% accurate we had two small classes of referals through the winter. Believe it or not winter is usually our busy time in the pool. Now since I was stupid enough to think I could change the diving world and bet everything on it here are my choices...I can stick to my guns, loose everything and go down fighting and swearing I am right and everyone else is wrong...or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

Not sure if you do this for a living but how about this?
Become a GUE instructor & teach parttime. And get away from the gear selling part of it. That way you will be dealing with divers that want to become proficient rather than the card collectors.

great plan huh

actually that is exactly my goal ut:
i want this to be fun, so therefore i would not want to teach fulltime or sell gear

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33 once bubbled...


Not sure if you do this for a living but how about this?
Become a GUE instructor & teach parttime. And get away from the gear selling part of it. That way you will be dealing with divers that want to become proficient rather than the card collectors.

great plan huh

actually that is exactly my goal ut:
i want this to be fun, so therefore i would not want to teach fulltime or sell gear

Well I hope it works out for you. It's too late for that here though. I do have a day job but I have every nickle I have and ever had in that stupid shop. There isn't any way in hell I could or even would chase Andrew around the country just to end up being able to teach DIRF's. That's the last thing I would do now is spend another umpteen gazillion dollars jumping through hoops to become an instructor for yet another agency. I have donated enough to diving. I should have just given it to a kenal or something.

 

[wrongkey]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


<snip>
or...I can do a two for one special, cut the price to 2 bills and fill them classes, sell those masks and fins and pay the bills. Of course pool time gets cut in half also. It'll be like the rest in the area. In the process I will avoid spending my retirement in a cardboard box. Maybe have a second more expensive class for those who are interested. At least they would have a choice.

What do you think?

Since you asked, I think it's a good idea, if you want to continue in the business. Most prospective divers looking at who to take the basic OW course from probably aren't going to fully appreciate the quality difference you are offering. I know I wouldn't have at that stage of the game. Because of the pervasiveness of the cheap, inadequate course, some ordinarily smart people are going to remain skeptical of what's going on at your shop, and whether they're really getting something all that better or just being chumps. I suspect that offering whiz bang class and also offering the deluxe version for those interested might actually spawn interest in the better class. It'll be clear they can get from you what they can get everywhere else, but also something better if they want it. People who want to get a card can, people whose goal is to really learn how to dive well can. You can always sell the first group a DIR-F class later if they change their mind.

 

[padiscubapro]

Doppler once bubbled...


Hi Tomcat:

First: I have to declare a conflict of interest... I am and I-T for TDI! However, JJ was also my cave instructor and I have a great deal of respect for him.

OK that out of the way, I will say that like most instructors at this level (trimix) my courses do not "follow" the outline put out by the agency. I think this is true of TDI, IANTD and any other agency. In my case, my courses meet what TDI says are minimum standards, but I encourage instructors and am encouraged by my "boss" to develop something that reflects the needs of local conditions and the experience gathered doing dives in those condidtions. My course outline for example, bears little resemblance to the one given me by TDI and my exams are my exams and are actually very different to TDIs. I teach Hogathian techniques and point out to students that some of the things suggested in TDI manuals will get them hurt if they try that **** in the Great Lakes. An example, the tables used in the manuals and the gas mixes make little sense. VPM and RGBM are now taught as standard here, a major deviation from TDI "law." For example teaching 80/20 is silly and I don't know any TDI instructors still teaching deep air.

The major difference from what I can see is that GUE has a strong brand and set course curriculum. There is less latitude for the instructor. This has good and bad points. By the way, I feel GUE materials are very good. There are some faults but it is impossible to produce course materials that are suitable for all conditions globally.)

One of the outcomes of GUE's policy is much tighter quality control. The cadre of instructors right now seem to be excellent divers and the majority are fine instructors. With a small organization, this is possible. I have my opinion of how management issues might be handled as GUE grows, but that's all about management style and MBA stuff which we can discuss in another thread if you wish.

As an agency TDI has suffered greatly in the past because of I-Ts and instructors who cut corners. I recently refused to certify a trimix instructor who had, in my opinion, fast-tracked his way from openwater instructor to deco instructor and frankly was a mess in the water. He went to another IT and got certified... Bad mark for TDI in my opinion. However, we are trying to clean that sort of bull**** up. It will take time and likely there will always be crappy instructors.

The question you may ask then is why do I teach for TDI... well apart from being a friend of the founders -- which does allow me some licence -- I find the support is there. Running a teaching business is easy with TDI backing me up and supplying materials.

What does all this mean? We go right back to the old adage interview instructors. Listen to what they say and ask for referrals. You are buying a very expensive course and committing a lot of time to it. Make sure the chemistry between you and your instructor and the scope of the course feel right to you.

Good luck

Doppler

I purposely stayed out of this discussion.. but now that everyone has brought in every major training agency but one its my turn.. I wount ever teach a PADI tech class, when the manual came out I pointed out several errors or poor practices and they just blew them off..

ANDI teaches classes all the way through trimix ccr with no real depth limits.. Its been around since 1988 and has NEVER had an insurance claim.. This is saying something since the best I have heard of other than ANDI was 4 years.. Why is this so.. its difficult to become an instructor at any level but technical is that much harder.. Every single rebreather and technical student gets questioneers as does 50% of rec ratings(we have thrown out instructors that now hold elite ratings with other agencies).. every instructor goes through the same training and becomming an I-T takes considerable time (plus there are only a few people who can make ITs) and not many are ever made.. To this date ANDI has only made 110 ITS (I know my number is higher - I chose it), ANDI's ITs read like a whos who in diving many have gone on to start their own agencies or run others..

We follow a strict set of procedures and curriculum and the buddy system is very important for mission planning (but we also have solo instruction for those that require it), there is no strict set of rules how gear must be configured but an overall set of guidleines and what is the minimum gear required, local conditions prevail.


GUE never impresse me.. too rigid, and the training accident(instructor skill prevented a fatality) they had a while back with a diver otoxing probably wouldn't have happend with an ANDI program (the procedures that were followed , allowed it )If it happend it would have been clear that the instructor violated established procedures and would require action.

The only GUE instructor that I know didn't impress me with his skills, but I'll learn more in the near future.. I'll be working with a GUE instructor (tech 2, cave ect..trained by jj)who is unhappy with the agency and is crossing(he has to take the classes like everyone else) to ANDI.

I still teach classes and certify TDI when requested (not that many though) since ANDI standards meet or exceed all TDI standards.

 

[metridium]

padiscubapro wrote...
GUE never impresse me.. too rigid, and the training accident(instructor skill prevented a fatality) they had a while back with a diver otoxing...

Hadn't heard about that. Have any more info?

 

[O-ring]

metridium once bubbled...
Hadn't heard about that. Have any more info?

He's probably talking about that student that toxed in the Tech 1 class in Croatia last year...there was a post on quest or techdiver or somewhere about it..

 

[metridium]

O-ring wrote...
He's probably talking about that student that toxed in the Tech 1 class in Croatia last year...there was a post on quest or techdiver or somewhere about it..

I think MHK referred to that in a recent post. The guy failed to analyze the mix that he himself had filled?

 

[O-ring]

metridium once bubbled...
I think MHK referred to that in a recent post. The guy failed to analyze the mix that he himself had filled?

I am sure someone will hammer me if I am wrong, but as I remember it, he accidentally double filled o2 instead of He and was breathing roughly 50% at 100' or something...he didn't analyze it. Georgitsis held the reg in his mouth through a couple seizures and got him to the surface.