ElectricZombie
Contributor
DIR-F requires a minumum of OW certification. It's not intended to teach people to dive. GUE will be coming out with it's own OW program later.
TDI GUE course differences
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DIR-F requires a minumum of OW certification. It's not intended to teach people to dive. GUE will be coming out with it's own OW program later.
Bob Sherwood
Contributor
One of the biggest differences, is that GUE is not really interested in training the masses. That is why the requirements
( i.e. equipment/gases/physical fitness/ philosophy/ect) are as strict as they are. While there are certainly, and always will be differences of opinions, other agencies seem to be more interested in the profit side of training. ( more $ driven )
GUE instructors are encouraged to weed out unlikely candidates before and during the training process. GUE does not believe that diving is for everyone and that anyone can do any type of diving.
I can not speak for other instructors, but I personally am not out to convert anyone to our philosophy. There are plenty of other Tec instructors out there from various agencies that will be happy to train the masses, (always has been, always will be). Believe me, there are many more people out there that want GUE training than the current GUE instructors can teach. GUE is here to offer those that see the value in what we are currently offering or have not been satisfied with what they have gotten elsewhere and are searching/or are open minded to other options.
Some people might think this is arrogant or elitist.
Perception of reality and reality are often very different. We simply want to cater to people that are already interested in what we have to offer. Some will look at what GUE offers and feel that they have found what they were seeking, others may participate in GUE courses and feel that they did not find what the were seeking.(everyone's goals are not the same)
I support everyone's right to choose/make their own decisions regarding their path of education and experience, hoping that they have gained enough knowledge to make the best choice for themselves.
In any case I think the only true way to compare what each agency teaches is to participate in the courses they offer. After all if it is knowledge that you are seeking, you can always learn from everyone you encounter.
the sharing of information between divers regardless of agency affiliation only makes all of us better. Best to all, thanks, Bob
( i.e. equipment/gases/physical fitness/ philosophy/ect) are as strict as they are. While there are certainly, and always will be differences of opinions, other agencies seem to be more interested in the profit side of training. ( more $ driven )
GUE instructors are encouraged to weed out unlikely candidates before and during the training process. GUE does not believe that diving is for everyone and that anyone can do any type of diving.
I can not speak for other instructors, but I personally am not out to convert anyone to our philosophy. There are plenty of other Tec instructors out there from various agencies that will be happy to train the masses, (always has been, always will be). Believe me, there are many more people out there that want GUE training than the current GUE instructors can teach. GUE is here to offer those that see the value in what we are currently offering or have not been satisfied with what they have gotten elsewhere and are searching/or are open minded to other options.
Some people might think this is arrogant or elitist.
Perception of reality and reality are often very different. We simply want to cater to people that are already interested in what we have to offer. Some will look at what GUE offers and feel that they have found what they were seeking, others may participate in GUE courses and feel that they did not find what the were seeking.(everyone's goals are not the same)
I support everyone's right to choose/make their own decisions regarding their path of education and experience, hoping that they have gained enough knowledge to make the best choice for themselves.
In any case I think the only true way to compare what each agency teaches is to participate in the courses they offer. After all if it is knowledge that you are seeking, you can always learn from everyone you encounter.
the sharing of information between divers regardless of agency affiliation only makes all of us better. Best to all, thanks, Bob
Spent some time chatting with an instructor who has taken both TDI and GUE courses.
He mentioned that one big difference between GUE and TDI is that you will learn about on-the-fly deco in a GUE tech course while TDI pretty much sticks to predetermined tables.
Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?
Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.)
He mentioned that one big difference between GUE and TDI is that you will learn about on-the-fly deco in a GUE tech course while TDI pretty much sticks to predetermined tables.
Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?
Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.)
THANK good information, and I like the aproach that you say GUE is using to teach divers.
OK I am a technical diver.....I am looking for something more.
what does GUE offer that I haven't already got from the other agencies that would convence me to take one of their courses.
Basicly If i where to look for what GUE offers what would i find....that is different...not necessarily better or worse but different. [i am not trying to troll i am sincerely interested]
Bob Sherwood
Contributor
that you will learn about on-the-fly deco in a GUE tech course while TDI pretty much sticks to predetermined tables.
Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?
Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.) [/B][/QUOTE]
It is correct that GUE teaches students how to figure decompression on the fly. This is one of the major advantages to utilizing standard gases instead of the best mix formulas taught by other instructors. The method however requires adherence to our choices of gases and an understanding of decompression modeling that is taught. best, bob
Is this correct or did I understand him wrongly?
Seems like a pretty big advantage to me given that any number of things can defer from dive plan and cause you to require an alteration to your dive profile (e.g. over stay, under stay at planned depth, lost gas, etc.) [/B][/QUOTE]
It is correct that GUE teaches students how to figure decompression on the fly. This is one of the major advantages to utilizing standard gases instead of the best mix formulas taught by other instructors. The method however requires adherence to our choices of gases and an understanding of decompression modeling that is taught. best, bob
Bob Sherwood
Contributor
THANK good information, and I like the aproach that you say GUE is using to teach divers.
OK I am a technical diver.....I am looking for something more.
what does GUE offer that I haven't already got from the other agencies that would convence me to take one of their courses.
Basicly If i where to look for what GUE offers what would i find....that is different...not necessarily better or worse but different. [i am not trying to troll i am sincerely interested] [/B][/QUOTE]
AquaTec
I checked out your webpage, and while everyone's motivation is different, what I would say to you is the following:
First, please remember that I am not trying to convince anyone to take a GUE course. I think that you should feel that there is something to gain from any course or you should NOT take it.
Second, I don't know what you did or didn't get in your prior training, therefore I'm not sure what you are looking for. A personal interview would be the best first step. that being said:
From your page I get the feeling that you're education oriented and enjoy taking/teaching courses. You have taken courses from PADI, IANTD and TDI, and possibly others. One from GUE might be in order<G>
the majority of the GUE instructors utilize video feedback in the training and evaluation process. It is a very valuable tool and that alone is usually worth the price of admission to a course.
I might be inclined to join a class purely out of a quest for knowledge of what other agencies/instructors are offering. Consider it part of your continuing education.
Most instructors are never evaluated after they are certified as instructors. This undermines the agencies ability to have any kind of hands on quality control of their key people, and also is an injustice to the instructor.
I'd suggest a phone call to a perspective instructor to better evaluate what the benefits to you might be. Check out the GUE webpage under instructor database for someone close to you. if you like, you can always call me. Best, Bob
OK I am a technical diver.....I am looking for something more.
what does GUE offer that I haven't already got from the other agencies that would convence me to take one of their courses.
Basicly If i where to look for what GUE offers what would i find....that is different...not necessarily better or worse but different. [i am not trying to troll i am sincerely interested] [/B][/QUOTE]
AquaTec
I checked out your webpage, and while everyone's motivation is different, what I would say to you is the following:
First, please remember that I am not trying to convince anyone to take a GUE course. I think that you should feel that there is something to gain from any course or you should NOT take it.
Second, I don't know what you did or didn't get in your prior training, therefore I'm not sure what you are looking for. A personal interview would be the best first step. that being said:
From your page I get the feeling that you're education oriented and enjoy taking/teaching courses. You have taken courses from PADI, IANTD and TDI, and possibly others. One from GUE might be in order<G>
the majority of the GUE instructors utilize video feedback in the training and evaluation process. It is a very valuable tool and that alone is usually worth the price of admission to a course.
I might be inclined to join a class purely out of a quest for knowledge of what other agencies/instructors are offering. Consider it part of your continuing education.
Most instructors are never evaluated after they are certified as instructors. This undermines the agencies ability to have any kind of hands on quality control of their key people, and also is an injustice to the instructor.
I'd suggest a phone call to a perspective instructor to better evaluate what the benefits to you might be. Check out the GUE webpage under instructor database for someone close to you. if you like, you can always call me. Best, Bob
Bob
Your comments are interesting, the reading between the lines is the most interesting part.
you are sivel though.
in 30 years of diving, the courses have stacked up. but what is hard to put down on the paper is the real life experience that comes with years of diving, believe me it is not just about taking courses.
My experience with becoming an instructor has been just the opposite. with TDI the evaluation process for IT was a week long.
and for the Advanced Trimix, I had to go to the Caymans and spend a week being evaluated as well. this is one good reason to continue taking courses and being evaluated. to maintain a performance level capable of passing the current days evaluation process, maintain the most current knowledge, and to demenstrate that to your peers/supperiors and allow yourself to be shown how to improve, or where you need to update your knowledge base......this is one reason i was interested in the DIRF, I general take some sort of course every couple of years.
It is true that in the industry some instructor levels are able to be crossed over to other agencies, that may or may not be a flaw but the instructor did have to be evaluated at some point durring each level of advancement. I am currently being asked to cross over to the PADI Tech Rec Instructor program, there is an evaluation process that I would have to go through, but it is still just a cross over. [the problem for me is I am not convinced I would ever want to teach a PADI Tech Rec Course]
I would say that the instructor who has been an instructor for a while is probably more they type you reffer to as that person has not been evaluated by his peers or superiors since he recieved his last instructors rating.
in the post to me and the one above you pointed out the only two major differences i can see between GUE and other tech agencies. other than the Ra Ra I spoke of before which is missing from pretty well all the other agencies.
Deco on the fly, which is really pretty simply when you dive the same mix everytime it is really just memorization and some simple math.
The video feed back is a great thing, I lived in a ski resort for the last 13 years and many of their programs provide video feedback.
I know it has improved my skiing to watch and be told what i am doing wrong and how to improve it.
as for me looking for something more I was being hypothetical so as to continue our conversation and discuss further the differences in agencies. I haven't really seen the "You will learn this idea and in this manner" posative sales pitch that is was looking for.
I am a believer that GUE, TDI, and IANTD are all no better or no worse than each other they are just differnt from one another. except that many of the GUE sales tools are negative selling techniques [this does not reflect on you Bob]
I have been looking for a positive selling technique to come out of this conversation form someone...the best I got was from Bob a neutraul selling technique.
Negative sales technique = choose us because the other guys are so bad you have no choice, based soley on competition and how they are a poor choice without really mentioning your own products benifits, only that it's better by default.
Positive sales technique = chosse our product because our product will perform as described, be of good value, and will last. generaly no mention of the compatetion, based soley on the merits of your product
Neutraul sales technique = choose our product if you want to, if you don't want to that is ok, we'll be fine without you. obviously the weekest sales technique, generaly used by companies who feel they have the market share and customers will come and go based on national averages etc. think large corperations vs the little guy.
question are the GUE instructors evaluated periodicly after they become instructors. and how are they evaluated, with such a small network it would be easy to use the good old boy method of evaluation as they must all know each other quite well.
this has made for interesting conversation though hasn't it
Your comments are interesting, the reading between the lines is the most interesting part.
you are sivel though.
in 30 years of diving, the courses have stacked up. but what is hard to put down on the paper is the real life experience that comes with years of diving, believe me it is not just about taking courses.
My experience with becoming an instructor has been just the opposite. with TDI the evaluation process for IT was a week long.
and for the Advanced Trimix, I had to go to the Caymans and spend a week being evaluated as well. this is one good reason to continue taking courses and being evaluated. to maintain a performance level capable of passing the current days evaluation process, maintain the most current knowledge, and to demenstrate that to your peers/supperiors and allow yourself to be shown how to improve, or where you need to update your knowledge base......this is one reason i was interested in the DIRF, I general take some sort of course every couple of years.
It is true that in the industry some instructor levels are able to be crossed over to other agencies, that may or may not be a flaw but the instructor did have to be evaluated at some point durring each level of advancement. I am currently being asked to cross over to the PADI Tech Rec Instructor program, there is an evaluation process that I would have to go through, but it is still just a cross over. [the problem for me is I am not convinced I would ever want to teach a PADI Tech Rec Course]
I would say that the instructor who has been an instructor for a while is probably more they type you reffer to as that person has not been evaluated by his peers or superiors since he recieved his last instructors rating.
in the post to me and the one above you pointed out the only two major differences i can see between GUE and other tech agencies. other than the Ra Ra I spoke of before which is missing from pretty well all the other agencies.
Deco on the fly, which is really pretty simply when you dive the same mix everytime it is really just memorization and some simple math.
The video feed back is a great thing, I lived in a ski resort for the last 13 years and many of their programs provide video feedback.
I know it has improved my skiing to watch and be told what i am doing wrong and how to improve it.
as for me looking for something more I was being hypothetical so as to continue our conversation and discuss further the differences in agencies. I haven't really seen the "You will learn this idea and in this manner" posative sales pitch that is was looking for.
I am a believer that GUE, TDI, and IANTD are all no better or no worse than each other they are just differnt from one another. except that many of the GUE sales tools are negative selling techniques [this does not reflect on you Bob]
I have been looking for a positive selling technique to come out of this conversation form someone...the best I got was from Bob a neutraul selling technique.
Negative sales technique = choose us because the other guys are so bad you have no choice, based soley on competition and how they are a poor choice without really mentioning your own products benifits, only that it's better by default.
Positive sales technique = chosse our product because our product will perform as described, be of good value, and will last. generaly no mention of the compatetion, based soley on the merits of your product
Neutraul sales technique = choose our product if you want to, if you don't want to that is ok, we'll be fine without you. obviously the weekest sales technique, generaly used by companies who feel they have the market share and customers will come and go based on national averages etc. think large corperations vs the little guy.
question are the GUE instructors evaluated periodicly after they become instructors. and how are they evaluated, with such a small network it would be easy to use the good old boy method of evaluation as they must all know each other quite well.
this has made for interesting conversation though hasn't it
:doctor:
You know I haven't been on the board for some time now and it is nice to know that some things never change. I am referring to the angency ramblings as to who is better. What I would suggest for you to do is to find a instructor that you would feel comfortable with. Ask around there must be some other divers you know in your area. If you can find a instructor who can teach for both agencies, chances are he will combine the philosophy of both TDI and GUE. Regardless of what training we take or what agency we use, we all start off on a standard and over time we will make adjustments that suit us as personal consideration
You know I haven't been on the board for some time now and it is nice to know that some things never change. I am referring to the angency ramblings as to who is better. What I would suggest for you to do is to find a instructor that you would feel comfortable with. Ask around there must be some other divers you know in your area. If you can find a instructor who can teach for both agencies, chances are he will combine the philosophy of both TDI and GUE. Regardless of what training we take or what agency we use, we all start off on a standard and over time we will make adjustments that suit us as personal consideration
that's certainly good advice. however, from what i have been hearing, on top of having a good instructor, the course content and philosophy matters as well.
tdi may be open to adapting training/configurations/philosophies from other agencies. i don't think gue is as flexible in this regard. so this already is a major choice and decision point.
also, from what i understand, an instructor teaching gue is not likely to require combining stuff from other agencies, because of the strict philosophies that gue adheres to (e.g. must have long hose, no diving solo, final deco on 100%).
as for suiting personal considerations, my personal impression of gue is that there is no such thing. here's what happenned to me over the weekend:
i had just gotten a bp/harness setup. not wanting to hang the octopus in the triangle area cos it would add drag, i decided to have it under my chin instead. so i did the usual by attaching a bungee necklace around the mouth piece. the bungee was fairly tight (maybe i have a big head!
) so that i could reach it without using my hands. to make it easier to put on and take off, i altered the attachment method slightly so that instead of having the free ends sticking under the cable tie at the mouth piece, i now had the free ends at the back of my neck, joined by a small quick release clip. at the moment they are just tied down, but if this works out, the ends will be glued down so that they won't come off.
instructor no.1 (DIR-F instructor, was orginally a TDI instructor) sees it and asks me why. i told him why and he went "well.....". ok, so that wasn't straightforward "no you can't do it that way" yet, but then i again i wasn't taking a course from him (yet) and wasn't even diving DIR in the first place. but i could sense that a "no, do it the standard way" would be forthcoming at some point or other.
instructor no.2 (just did DIR-F course, completed most of the TDI courses) sees it and also asks me why. i told him why and he went "so that defeats the purpose of diving with standard equipment". i explained that this was just a friggin small thing that is not a failure point, serves a real purpose to me (prevents me from snapping my ears on every other dive) and will not be used by anyone other than me. heck, if you don't specifically look behind my head while i'm wearing it, you won't even know it's there. he didn't buy that and gave me some example about why it is that hoses all come from the right and no one has it coming from the left, blah blah blah.
so to summarise, i think that as far as "mood" goes, the gue seems quite distinct from the rest. what i have described above, is not a rant. just my impression of how complete the "assimilation" is : ). i know gue has reasons and explanations for all the recommendations/requirements that they have. but i also know that you can create logical sounding and reasonable explanations for just about anything under the sun as well (i am a consultant by profession and i do this on a daily basis). instructor no.2 once told me that i should keep an open mind when trying to understand gue. not sure if i have done that 100% but at the moment, it seems to me that minds are more closed at the other end of the stick.
despite having said all this, i think i'll take the gue courses anyway. they seem to involve greater knowledge about the subject and cover more of the stuff that i'm interested in (e.g. on-the-fly deco, trimix at an entry level course).
resistance is futile. assimilation will be complete.
tdi may be open to adapting training/configurations/philosophies from other agencies. i don't think gue is as flexible in this regard. so this already is a major choice and decision point.
also, from what i understand, an instructor teaching gue is not likely to require combining stuff from other agencies, because of the strict philosophies that gue adheres to (e.g. must have long hose, no diving solo, final deco on 100%).
as for suiting personal considerations, my personal impression of gue is that there is no such thing. here's what happenned to me over the weekend:
i had just gotten a bp/harness setup. not wanting to hang the octopus in the triangle area cos it would add drag, i decided to have it under my chin instead. so i did the usual by attaching a bungee necklace around the mouth piece. the bungee was fairly tight (maybe i have a big head!
) so that i could reach it without using my hands. to make it easier to put on and take off, i altered the attachment method slightly so that instead of having the free ends sticking under the cable tie at the mouth piece, i now had the free ends at the back of my neck, joined by a small quick release clip. at the moment they are just tied down, but if this works out, the ends will be glued down so that they won't come off.instructor no.1 (DIR-F instructor, was orginally a TDI instructor) sees it and asks me why. i told him why and he went "well.....". ok, so that wasn't straightforward "no you can't do it that way" yet, but then i again i wasn't taking a course from him (yet) and wasn't even diving DIR in the first place. but i could sense that a "no, do it the standard way" would be forthcoming at some point or other.
instructor no.2 (just did DIR-F course, completed most of the TDI courses) sees it and also asks me why. i told him why and he went "so that defeats the purpose of diving with standard equipment". i explained that this was just a friggin small thing that is not a failure point, serves a real purpose to me (prevents me from snapping my ears on every other dive) and will not be used by anyone other than me. heck, if you don't specifically look behind my head while i'm wearing it, you won't even know it's there. he didn't buy that and gave me some example about why it is that hoses all come from the right and no one has it coming from the left, blah blah blah.
so to summarise, i think that as far as "mood" goes, the gue seems quite distinct from the rest. what i have described above, is not a rant. just my impression of how complete the "assimilation" is : ). i know gue has reasons and explanations for all the recommendations/requirements that they have. but i also know that you can create logical sounding and reasonable explanations for just about anything under the sun as well (i am a consultant by profession and i do this on a daily basis
). instructor no.2 once told me that i should keep an open mind when trying to understand gue. not sure if i have done that 100% but at the moment, it seems to me that minds are more closed at the other end of the stick.despite having said all this, i think i'll take the gue courses anyway. they seem to involve greater knowledge about the subject and cover more of the stuff that i'm interested in (e.g. on-the-fly deco, trimix at an entry level course).
resistance is futile. assimilation will be complete.
Braunbehrens
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Sounds like your rig is not balanced. One of the things you learn in a GUE class is to balance your rig. Since you only need to be neutral at 10 ft with all tanks empty, you really should not be more than about 10 - 15 pounds negative at the start of the dive. If you are diving Helium then even less. You should have ditchable weight that allows you to still do stops if you absolutely need to drop something.
This is all elementary stuff, but every single person in my GUE classes had too much lead, including me.
The problem with TDI etc. is that you don't get a consistent message. The fact that they do NOT tell you "no, this is a dumb way to dive, this other way is better" is exactly why TDI instruction is largely a waste of time.
I learned more in my first GUE class then in all other classes combined.
As far as cost, if you think that deciding which training to get based on how much it costs makes sense, then I would suggest switching to golf.
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