TDI GUE course differences

[Braunbehrens]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...



Paul... I haven't been following this thread... so forgive me if I have missed something... but this seems inconsistent.

BTW... if a tank falling on TC's little plastic clip breaks it what do you think the falling tank is going to do to the plastic second stage the necklace is attached to? Perhaps the DIR diver would stow is rig so that couldn't happen in the first place.

Regarding your first point.

If you are donating the primary in a real failure situation, and then can't locate the backup you should still be ok, but it's going to be quite stressful. Better to avoid this by having your necklace attached in a way to minimize failures.

If a tank falls on your reg and damages it so that it will fail without provocation, you go to the backup. Yes, we all stow our gear properly, but you never know what happens on the other end of the boat.

You may be confusing a training situation with a real emergency. In the case of my little devious OOA drill there was no real emergency.

I don't think it's inconsistent, but I can see how it might appear that way at first glance.

In any case, even having your necklace not there when you go for it should not cause you to freak. You still have gas, you can use the BC inflator in a real emergency. However, I'd rather avoid this at all costs, and in the case of Tomcat, I think that making the bungee longer is simply a more logical solution.

 

[Braunbehrens]

padiscubapro once bubbled...
Braunbehrens,
If you are neutral @10 fsw in a shell type suit you be ok on ascent assuming you are still venting, but there are lots of other drysuits out there..

This illustrates perfectly that DIR is a system, and you can't just take one part and throw the rest out the window. In a GUE class you will learn to dive a balanced rig, and neoprene suits are not DIR.

The goal is not to be neutral with 1/3 your gas, if there is no problem the stress level is low, the big issue if you are having trouble with some situation that causes you gas to get low, this is another stressor that can potentially increase the likelyhood of an accident.

I'm not rereading my post, but I'm pretty sure (and HOPE) that I didn't say that the goal was to be neutral with 1/3rd of your gas. I'm saying that with all tanks completely empty you should be neutral at 10 fsw. If this is really causing you to blow to the surface from 10 ft, then you are doing something wrong. You can still dump your stages, which are going to be slightly positive, dive the suit really tight for the last 10 feet, and kick down a little with your legs. I suggest you try it, and if it really is a problem then weight yourself to be neutral at 5 ft, but I reallly doubt it.

The times when there IS a problem is what should be planned for, if you don't get low gas thats great! If you are neutral (for 1/3)you ar now also positive(if its only slight you can probably control yourself) and the other diver is too positive you wount be able to hold him/her down and there goes your bddy system. [/B]

I don't know where you get this from, but it has nothing to do with what I said. This is a typical cluster situation from people who don't take the time to actually check their buoyancy before diving. In a GUE class you WILL be checking your buoyancy, and you will make sure that you can make a safe ascent with empty tanks with the amount of lead you carry. You will also make sure you are not carrying too much. I dropped 16 pounds of lead, and had to add gas to my wing to ascend from 20 ft.

Most people carry way too much lead, then they have to compensate with dual wings in case they have a failure, then they add bungees to that system which causes more drag, and soon you have a very convoluted system that is much harder to dive.


Like a lot of things....you can talk about it all you want, someone who hasn't done it just isn't going to get it.

I suggest that anyone who doesn't get it simply try the system once to see how it feels. There are lots of DIR demos around the country. Just call GUE and find out where they are.

 

[Braunbehrens]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Not to nit pick but I decided the other way worked better (for me)a long time ago. Others have just taken some one elses word for it both times. Yes, it's a little thing but a good example. My rig looks pretty much like I just stepped out of a GUE class (or a Halcyon advertisement) and that's because I've found the vast majority of the system works just fine without reinventing the weel. Still, the philosophical issues are fun to discuss.

Mike, there are morons everywhere, and people who can't (or don't) think for themselves are morons.

Before I accepted DIR I had raging fights with Trey and other DIR proponents about quite a few issues. They are all in the Techdiver and Quest archives. I'm fairly thick skinned, and I'm not shy about calling something BS if that is what I think it is.

As for the reel, I still dive it like that. The reason is that in our local waters we often don't know what the vis is going to be before going in. If it's 5 ft, then I want to reel out from a point near the anchor, but if it's 30 ft then I don't want to have my reel sticking to my stage where it creates drag. I have no issue with getting to it on the rear D-ring, so that's where it goes if there really is no reason to use it. I wouldn't put it there in a wreck, but in a wreck I would be using it, so I wouldn't need to carry it the whole dive.

Everytime I thought that my was was better than doing it the way Trey said, I eventually came around. More often than not this has resulted in me selling some gear. I've wasted a lot of money on dumb gear that I ended up selling for peanuts.

I do also appreciate the frank discussion.

 

[diveski01]

[

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.


MikeFerrara once bubbled...

In order to stay out of jail I'm going to have to shorten and cheapen the class and give the masses what they want. I guess then I'll be able to fill a DIRF. [/B]

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?

Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

 

[Charlie99]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Mike, there are morons everywhere, and people who can't (or don't) think for themselves are morons.

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
In a GUE class you WILL be checking your buoyancy, and you will make sure that you can make a safe ascent with empty tanks with the amount of lead you carry. You will also make sure you are not carrying too much. I dropped 16 pounds of lead..

The two statements above are from two different posts, but rather humorous when put next to each other.

It appears that many DIR-F students need the class to get them to look at their basic diving skills. Is "moron" too harsh a word to describe them?

 

[Charlie99]

diveski01 once bubbled towards Mike Ferrera.....
Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, while leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Charlie99 once bubbled...

It appears that many DIR-F students need the class to get them to look at their basic diving skills. Is "moron" too harsh a word to describe them?

I described as morons only people who do not think for themselves. Do you disagree with that?!?!?


GUE classes make you realize that the skills you had really weren't up to par, and encourage you to improve your diving.

I thought that I was properly weighted. I was actually convinced of it. I was sure that taking off the 16 pounds would result in an ascent, whether I wanted it or not, and was ready for that. I had done the weight check several times, but apparently not in a thourough enough fashion.

I can't really teach a DIR - F class over the net, I'm not an instructor and I think you need to get in the water to do it. However, I can tell you that you will learn how to balance your rig.

 

[diveski01]

Charlie99 once bubbled...


Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, why leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

I think he's talking out both sides of his mouth. It seems he is in a bit of a mood himself in this thread.

 

[MikeFerrara]

diveski01 once bubbled...
[

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?

Anyone who is following DIR related threads can easily see how bi-polar your stance is regarding DIR and GUE. Somedays you are all about DIR (ie when trying to fill 3 fundamentals courses so that the dive shop you own will sell more Halcyon gear). But mostly you are bashing away like a maniac.

Well, I have never been all about DIR. I do agree with much of it but I never ever and I mean never refer to myself as DIR. There are points on which I disagree with GUE. What is the point? I also disagree with much of what PADI and IANTD do and I am an instructor for both those agencies. Yes I scheduled 3 DIRF classes with Tyler Moon. It's a good class a good service to offer and with luck I would sell more Halcyon equipment. BTW, I don't get a nickle from the class. Actually it will cost me money because If I charged for my expenses as well the price would just get to high. Where is the wrong? Is there something wrong with selling Halcyon equipment? Do you think one must be a DIR devote to do so? Sorry, they make good stuff. I use it and I sell it. I also believe the DIRF is a class that has a lot to offer the vast majority of divers. One doesn't need to be a true blue DIR kind of person to go along with that much. Do they?


I think you should elaborate on the point your trying to make.

 

[MikeFerrara]

diveski01 once bubbled...


I think he's talking out both sides of his mouth. It seems he is in a bit of a mood himself in this thread.

I'm glad you took the bait because I will be happy to defend my views and my ethics to you or any one else here in public or any where else and at any time. Do you have any questions or specific accusations you would like me to address?

Why don't you stop on down this way and talk to some folks to see what I have done for divers in the area? Most I miight add has been at my own considerable expense.

Maybe you would like to describe for us your efforts to contribute to diving.

I'm teaching a IANTD nitrox class at Haigh Quarry tomarrow. Your in the area, maybe you would like to come up and ask questions in person. We will all be in Halcyon equipment. The students will be working on developing really good skills and I will be giving an IANTD lecture. Speaking out both sides of my mouth as you call it.

I'll be there about 10 am. We'll be spending the first few hours in the classroom and on land. What time can we expect you?