TDI GUE course differences

[Braunbehrens]

tomcat once bubbled...
so i did the usual by attaching a bungee necklace around the mouth piece. the bungee was fairly tight (maybe i have a big head! ) so that i could reach it without using my hands. to make it easier to put on and take off, i altered the attachment method slightly so that instead of having the free ends sticking under the cable tie at the mouth piece, i now had the free ends at the back of my neck, joined by a small quick release clip.

instructor no.1 (DIR-F instructor, was orginally a TDI instructor) sees it and asks me why.

Tomcat, there is a reason why the DIR way is specific. One of the tenents of DIR is KISS (keep it simple stupid) and another is "take only what you need".

Now ask yourself, do you need that clip? Couldn't you simply make the bungee longer?

You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.

Let's say now that your buddy is out of gas, and you donate your primary. You go for your backup, but the clip broke and now it's not there.

I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!

Needless to say, I immediately signaled him that I'm out of air, and he of course donated his primary.

Let's just say that I had a good laugh before giving it back to him, and he's never going to forget to put on his necklace reg again. You should have seen the look on his face.

Anyway, I'm just telling you this story because it illustrates how important that reg is.

I'll tell you one more anecdote. I was diving off my boat with 3 other guys. One of them became seasick, and couldn't dive. My gear had a problem, and I was about to call the dive, when he told me I should just dive his rig. I did, and it felt no different than mine. Everything was in the same place, and worked the same way.

There is something to be said for a uniform system. If any part fails to perform, it will be quickly found out and changed. If everyone just does any old thing, you'll find out too if something doesn't work. However, it might well be at 300 ft.

Just my opinion of course, everybody is free to do as they wish.

Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea. If anyone gives you too much attitude, be they GUE, TDI or whatever, I suggest finding someone else. There are plenty. I was very happy with my instructor, Andrew Georgitsis.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A couple of points...

If your neutral at 10 or 20 ft in a wet suit, with no air in the wing and a near empty tank, how exactly do you control your ascent from there to the surface? I think you need to be neutral nearer the surface so the most important part of your ascent can be controlled.

I have heard lots of ggod things about Andrew Georgitsis as an instructor. I'll bet he tought a great class before there was a GUE.

As to equipment selection and configuration. I can't speak for TDI but IANTD tries to teach the student how to evaluate an equipment configuration. Reference the IANTD "Technical Diver Encyclopedia", the chapter on this is very detailed. They give examples of several configurations including JJ's. I can't speak for the way some instructors implement the philosophy though.

In the case of GUE, they have done the evaluation for you while IANTD tries to teach you how to do it. The GUE/WKPP configuration is one that works. There are others but you may not learn how to know them when you see them. As they say "give one a fish, feed them for a day. Teach one to fish and feed them for life".

Sometimes it can really be funny. A while back I tried the reel/spool on the butt d-ring. I didn't like it. I had people give me all sorts of advice on how to learn to like it. I didn't like it so I just stopped doing it. Apparantly, GI has recently said he doesn't do that any more and I even think he said he removed the butt ring. All of a sudden divers who once insisted this was the way are moving their reels.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea.

NO. A good instructor should be able to explain how to evaluate for yourself if something is or isn't good. You may find yourself away from the instructor and the keyboard some day and need to make a decission on your own. As in all things it's learning the process that's most important, IMO.

 

[padiscubapro]

I have to agree with mike,

If you are neutral at 10ft you can't control the most important part of the ascent.. you must be neutral at or near the surface holding a normal breath.. this will allow you to stop at any depth and sink if necessary..

at worse case you should be taking at least 1 minute to go the last 10 feet.. personally I usually take 2 or 3 minutes, then continue a high fo2 on the surface for at least 5 minutes before attempting to climb a ladder or some other type of stressful action..

 

[AzAtty]

I thought about restraining myself, but the bait is far too tempting. Applying some of the evaluative skills they teach you in the GUE class, let's discuss the situation (I hope I'm not sounding harsh or critical here):

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!

1. Why did this problem occur in the first place?

2. Which member of the dive team dropped the ball?

3. Why didn't anyone notice on the surface that the diver did not have his backup donned?

4. If the diver's buddy did notice that his team member had not donned his backup, why did the buddy allow the team member to get into the water in that condition?

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
...I immediately signaled him that I'm out of air, and he of course donated his primary. Let's just say that I had a good laugh before giving it back to him...

1. Is having a "good laugh" at a team member's expense because someone failed to follow the team concept at the surface DIR?

2. Did the decision to signal an out-of-air drill knowing that one team member did not have his backup in place cause a potential safety issue or emergency under the circumstances?

3. Was teaching method employed in this case appropriate to achieving the goal of reminding a team member to be more careful in donning equipment?

4. What methods other than depriving a team member of a primary air source while underwater could have demonstrated the person's oversight in donning equipment?

Regardless of how many classes one takes, or from whom one takes those classes, a diver's judgment is ultimately the most important skill s/he can develop.

 

[Braunbehrens]

Seems my messages have created a lot of controversy.

First, the wetsuit issue. I'm talking drysuit diving, and if you are neutral at 10 ft with empty tanks, then you can make a slow ascent to the surface from there. Most tech diving is done in a drysuit if done properly.

Also, please remember that if you are at 10 ft with empty tanks, it means the excrement has hit the rotating blades in a big way. Under any normal circumstances you should have enough gas left in your tanks for you and your buddy to do an ascent, and probably much more than that (like another 1/3rd of your gas supply). If an extaordinary situation has occured, and you still need to do a very slow ascent for the last 10 feet, just dive the suit a little tight for those couple minutes.

I'm pretty sure you'd be ok in a wetsuit as well, but I haven't tried it. In a GUE class you will learn to be horizontal in the water, and if you are neutral at 10 feet, then it's not that big of a deal to simply use your fins to give a little downward thrust when you are ascending those last 10 ft. This will certainly assist you in making a slow ascent for those last few feet. If there are any doubts about it, then I suggest you practice this skill.

Mike, evaluating an equipment configuration and deciding if it's going to work or not is a pretty complicated thing to do. With everybody diving something different, and people changing stuff all the time, it becomes very hard to weed out the stuff that could get you in trouble. DIR doesn't mean you can't think for yourself, it just means that when you do, you better be able to back it up.

The comment about reel placement is a perfect example. A minor change was made because it was found that one way worked better than another.

AzAtty,

You are right that team members should check each other out and make sure all is right. Sometimes, when the boat is rocking a lot we end up doing this at 20 ft and combining it with a bubble check and OOA drill.

These guys I'm diving with are all accomplished divers, diving in rough conditions and most of them are tech divers. Not being able to get to your air supply for a few seconds is not something that will send them into a panic. If it is, I'd rather find out about it right away.

Just think, what if your necklace breaks? Are you going to die because OHMYGOD you can't get to your backup immediately? I was right in front of him the whole time with his primary in my hand, he was in no danger whatsoever. If you take a GUE class you will have the confidence in the water to know that this kind of thing is not a big deal.

As far as having a good laugh at his expense, that was not the point, just a fringe benefit. When you take a GUE class, you will soon learn that you are responsible for having all your gear where it goes, and having it tidy.

Whenever it is not, you will find that it mysteriously will get tangled in something. For example, if you fail to clip off your primary, you may find yourself being dragged down by it. This will probably coincide with another failure. This is a way to teach you what can and will happen if you don't have your gear properly stowed.

In my experience, "telling" someone about something is a much less effective tool than demonstrating to them how they are puttine their aßß in sling and letting them squirm for a few seconds. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I felt I couldn't handle this kind of thing, I'd pick another sport. If I didn't feel comfortable in the water, I wouldn't do any technical diving.

Remember that this was a training dive. You are actually expecting failures.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Just think, what if your necklace breaks? Are you going to die because OHMYGOD you can't get to your backup immediately?

Paul... I haven't been following this thread... so forgive me if I have missed something... but this seems inconsistent.

BTW... if a tank falling on TC's little plastic clip breaks it what do you think the falling tank is going to do to the plastic second stage the necklace is attached to? Perhaps the DIR diver would stow is rig so that couldn't happen in the first place.

 

[boomx5]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As to equipment selection and configuration. I can't speak for TDI but IANTD tries to teach the student how to evaluate an equipment configuration. Reference the IANTD "Technical Diver Encyclopedia", the chapter on this is very detailed. They give examples of several configurations including JJ's. I can't speak for the way some instructors implement the philosophy though.

When Mike and Tamara did our DIR-F class not only did they show us how to do it, but they showed us the reason for doing it. They did show us to some extent how to evaluate gear selection and gear setup, and how to recognize potential problems before they arise.

 

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens,
If you are neutral @10 fsw in a shell type suit you be ok on ascent assuming you are still venting, but there are lots of other drysuits out there.. if you do this with a neoprene suit you'll be a cork by the time you hit the surface. due to the cost neprem`ne

The goal is not to be neutral with 1/3 your gas, if there is no problem the stress level is low, the big issue if you are having trouble with some situation that causes you gas to get low, this is another stressor that can potentially increase the likelyhood of an accident.

The times when there IS a problem is what should be planned for, if you don't get low gas thats great! If you are neutral (for 1/3)you ar now also positive(if its only slight you can probably control yourself) and the other diver is too positive you wount be able to hold him/her down and there goes your bddy system.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Mike, evaluating an equipment configuration and deciding if it's going to work or not is a pretty complicated thing to do. With everybody diving something different, and people changing stuff all the time, it becomes very hard to weed out the stuff that could get you in trouble. DIR doesn't mean you can't think for yourself, it just means that when you do, you better be able to back it up.

For the record and for the most part I agree. You certainly need a sound starting point and it might be best not to invent it yourself.

The comment about reel placement is a perfect example. A minor change was made because it was found that one way worked better than another.

Not to nit pick but I decided the other way worked better (for me)a long time ago. Others have just taken some one elses word for it both times. Yes, it's a little thing but a good example. My rig looks pretty much like I just stepped out of a GUE class (or a Halcyon advertisement) and that's because I've found the vast majority of the system works just fine without reinventing the weel. Still, the philosophical issues are fun to discuss.