TDI GUE course differences

[AquaTec]

The original question was what are the differences between TDI and GUE technical courses.

Now it is obviouse that there is a huge difference in training when an PADI recreational diver goes and takes a GUE course. that is apples and oranges.

but after reading all the posts I have only heard a couple of differences.

1 - Deco on the fly instead of tables.....where this is not different is that TDI teaches the use of computers, which is deco on the fly and the added benifit of using any gas to do the deco on the fly.

2 - Video Feedback, this is a great advantage for GUE, I think more TDI instructors should look at this opption and start using this valauble technique. however this is not a diving difference just a teaching difference.

3 - GUE teaches standardized gear and TDI says access all gear and select what is best for you. both sides have good arguments for their case. one takes the decision process out of gear selection and the other puts the owness on the diver to make that decision. of course as a TDI instructor i favour the TDI way. but i would have to call this one a draw as it is really personality and experience based.

4 - GUE practices standardized gasses TDI practices the use all gasses. with standard gasses you will strat to memorize things like filling pressures, deco profiles, etc. with all gasses you need to do the math for you own fills, you will have flexibility with fills such as top offs or gas in remote areas, with the gas available to you you are able to figure out your deco profile. I see a slight edge with TDI on this one, but i am trying not to be bias in this one post so i will call it another draw

As I see the score now it is
TDI wins #1
GUE wins #2
and a tie on #3 & #4

Score 1 - 1 - 2

Now I return you back to the regularly scheduled my dad is bigger than your dad program you have been enjoying
Stay tuned for more scores as this broadcast continues

 

[MikeFerrara]

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MikeFerrara once bubbled...

IANTD is ten times better than GUE. I'm thinking that only a farm animal would choose GUE over IANTD.



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diveski01 said.

Who, in their right minds, would want to fill YOUR dirf classes when you clearly do not support what GUE brings to the game?

hehe I didn't even notice that you quoted that one. Look back at the conversation. LOL...Who do you think I was imitating? It works ok when he does it. hehehehehe

 

[MikeFerrara]

Charlie99 once bubbled...


Perhaps he is trying to keep the good, while leaving behind the bad -- such as the "holier than thou" attitude.

Yep ya think. LOL

I'll bet nobody can show where I have "bashed" DIR, GUE or the WKPP any more than I have "bashed" my own agencies and many equipment manufacturers. There just isn't an agency on the face of the planet that I can agree with 100%.

 

[Braunbehrens]

AquaTec once bubbled...
The original question was what are the differences between TDI and GUE technical courses.

Now it is obviouse that there is a huge difference in training when an PADI recreational diver goes and takes a GUE course. that is apples and oranges.

but after reading all the posts I have only heard a couple of differences.

1 - Deco on the fly instead of tables.....where this is not different is that TDI teaches the use of computers, which is deco on the fly and the added benifit of using any gas to do the deco on the fly.

2 - Video Feedback, this is a great advantage for GUE, I think more TDI instructors should look at this opption and start using this valauble technique. however this is not a diving difference just a teaching difference.

3 - GUE teaches standardized gear and TDI says access all gear and select what is best for you. both sides have good arguments for their case. one takes the decision process out of gear selection and the other puts the owness on the diver to make that decision. of course as a TDI instructor i favour the TDI way. but i would have to call this one a draw as it is really personality and experience based.

4 - GUE practices standardized gasses TDI practices the use all gasses. with standard gasses you will strat to memorize things like filling pressures, deco profiles, etc. with all gasses you need to do the math for you own fills, you will have flexibility with fills such as top offs or gas in remote areas, with the gas available to you you are able to figure out your deco profile. I see a slight edge with TDI on this one, but i am trying not to be bias in this one post so i will call it another draw

As I see the score now it is
TDI wins #1
GUE wins #2
and a tie on #3 & #4

Score 1 - 1 - 2

Now I return you back to the regularly scheduled my dad is bigger than your dad program you have been enjoying
Stay tuned for more score as this broadcast continues

1) Using computers is not deco on the fly. Using computers is mostly bend and treat. 90% of the time we get out of the water faster than using a computer, and 90% of the time the computer tells you to do the wrong thing. For example, a computer will penalize you for doing deep stops.

Also, using a computer you are relying on technology that can fail. It has happened to many of us.

2)I agree, video feedback is great. In general GUE tend to use the latest in all aspects of diving. Including deco theory, video feedback, etc.

3) DIR still allows you to use your own gear and to select it. They simply say that some things don't work. There still is a wide range of stuff that does work. Then there is stuff that is used by many many people, and you can be sure that you are not wasting your money.

For example, a neoprene drysuit is not DIR. A bag suit is. If you want to use a suit other than the TLS350 you can do that within DIR. Just make sure it works. Some people have bought bag suits that are badly cut, don't allow you to get to your valves, etc. etc. They have wasted their money instead of going with a sure thing. I am using a bag suit made by ocean vendors that most DIR people have never even heard of. I had them cut it just the way I want it and had them put on DIR style pockets. I'm am VERY happy with it.

4) Standard gasses do not limit you. If you are not an idiot, you can still blow up your tanks on a boat and figure out what to do. However, since you know all the tables by heart for standardized gasses, you will basically know what to do.

Let's take an example. You are doing a dive to 160 feet for 20 mn. Then you want to do some shallower stuff. So you fill your tanks with 21/50 at the shop, and dive them. Lets say (just for argument) that they are half empty at the end of the dive. If the boat has a compressor, you have them blow up the tank and you are now diving 21/25. Since you are diving shallow, it doesn't matter so much that you don't have as much helium. If the boat has nitrox you can have them pump 40% nitrox and you'll end up with something close to 30/25. Just dive it like 30/30, which is the other gas that you know the tables for. If they have only 32%, fine, top off with that, and now you have something like 25/25, which you can still dive like the 21/35 gas you know, since you are keeping it shallow.

If your plan was to go deep on the second dive, you can't do that anyway because you won't have enough helium in your tanks, unless you start off with a very expensive mix such as 21/70. But at that point I'd just bring two sets of doubles.

Knowing standard gasses is not a detriment to learning about mixing and using various gasses. It's an asset. The reason is that if you know the basics for 21%, 30%, 50% and 100% O2 (and possibly 18%) Then you have a good range of gasses covered, and can just use the nearest one for your deco planning.

Always err on the side of safety, of course. This means that if you dive a blown up mix that ended up being 25/25, then you dive it as 30/30 in terms of MOD, and as 21% in terms of deco.

The fact that 95% of your dives will be done on standard gasses, means that you will develop a feel for how much deco you need for a given dive on a given mix. It also means that you will get a feel for how your deco is working out in terms of sub clinical DCS. You have repeatable results, and if you are always tired after a certain dive, maybe it's time to look at the stops and see what you are doing wrong.

I'm not saying here the GUE is better than TDI,

OK, I lied, that is exactly what I'm saying. TDI, IANTD etc. could teach this stuff, but I haven't heard them teach it. Judging by the acceptance of many things that DIR has introduces, I'm sure they will start teaching some of that stuff soon, if they haven't already. Maybe some instructors will even be great. But maybe they'll be awful.

 

[AquaTec]

[/B][/QUOTE]

1) Using computers is not deco on the fly. Using computers is mostly bend and treat. 90% of the time we get out of the water faster than using a computer, and 90% of the time the computer tells you to do the wrong thing. For example, a computer will penalize you for doing deep stops

If you get penalized for doing deep stops then you are using the wrong computer, it is important to use the correct gear for the diving you will be doing.

Also, using a computer you are relying on technology that can fail. It has happened to many of us.

Redundency.....is it not true that everything to do with scuba is based on technology, we have redundent regs, mask, even lift bags all incase the primary fails. why not a redundent computer.

3) DIR still allows you to use your own gear and to select it. They simply say that some things don't work. There still is a wide range of stuff that does work. Then there is stuff that is used by many many people, and you can be sure that you are not wasting your money

one word bunggied.....not allowed in DIR and many many people use them.

For example, a neoprene drysuit is not DIR. A bag suit is. If you want to use a suit other than the TLS350 you can do that within DIR. Just make sure it works. Some people have bought bag suits that are badly cut, don't allow you to get to your valves, etc. etc. They have wasted their money instead of going with a sure thing. I am using a bag suit made by ocean vendors that most DIR people have never even heard of. I had them cut it just the way I want it and had them put on DIR style pockets. I'm am VERY happy with it.

what do you mean by a bag suit, is a crushed neoprene acceptable.

Let's take an example. You are doing a dive to 160 feet for 20 mn. Then you want to do some shallower stuff. So you fill your tanks with 21/50 at the shop, and dive them. Lets say (just for argument) that they are half empty at the end of the dive. If the boat has a compressor, you have them blow up the tank and you are now diving 21/25. Since you are diving shallow, it doesn't matter so much that you don't have as much helium. If the boat has nitrox you can have them pump 40% nitrox and you'll end up with something close to 30/25. Just dive it like 30/30, which is the other gas that you know the tables for. If they have only 32%, fine, top off with that, and now you have something like 25/25, which you can still dive like the 21/35 gas you know, since you are keeping it shallow.

first is 21/50 one of your standard gasses and second it sounds like a lot of rounding off, adjustments, making exceptions because you can;t figure out how to dive the gas you have but it is close enought to the limited number of gasses you know something about, so just fudge it a bit. where is the line when a mix is fudged to much

If your plan was to go deep on the second dive, you can't do that anyway because you won't have enough helium in your tanks, unless you start off with a very expensive mix such as 21/70. But at that point I'd just bring two sets of doubles.

how about top up with 750psi He within the range of a top up from a He tank, then add air to 3000 psi and presto you have 16/50 for that second deeper dive oh but that wouldn't be a standard gass...but heck we could pretend it is one of our standard gasses since that is all we know the deco for and just dive it anyways.....no you are right, better bring along more tanks, and blead off the gas from the first dive before you hurt yourself

Knowing standard gasses is not a detriment to learning about mixing and using various gasses. It's an asset. The reason is that if you know the basics for 21%, 30%, 50% and 100% O2 (and possibly 18%) Then you have a good range of gasses covered, and can just use the nearest one for your deco planning.

I concede that deco is not an exact science, but i will not add to the inexactness by just doing a deco profile close to what ever i have, or fudge the deco gas a bit.

Always err on the side of safety, of course. This means that if you dive a blown up mix that ended up being 25/25, then you dive it as 30/30 in terms of MOD, and as 21% in terms of deco.

from what you have explained to me here I would say that ERROR is the key word in your estimations and fudging along.

The fact that 95% of your dives will be done on standard gasses, means that you will develop a feel for how much deco you need for a given dive on a given mix. It also means that you will get a feel for how your deco is working out in terms of sub clinical DCS. You have repeatable results, and if you are always tired after a certain dive, maybe it's time to look at the stops and see what you are doing wrong.

I agree that diving standard gasses is a good thing, but if all you learn to do is dive those gasses then you should also learn not to deviate from them, it seems if you are taught that not diving the standard gas and just pretending that it is is ok, then this is not very good instruction that you are recieving and I would look elsewhere for a better quality instructor. I know some good TDI or IANTD ones

I'm not saying here the GUE is better than TDI,

I won't fall into the mine is better than your argument, mine is different, flexible, and open minded.
Your is just dive by rule of thumb and estimates, not really the math part of it all.

just had a thought about the old argument with the navt tables. that was that they where tested by fit athletes/navy divers and the people who where actualy using them did not fit the same profile. GUE is sort of in the same spot whereas the people comming up with this stuff are fit athletes/explorers and there body is capable of doing this type of decompression etc. this may not be so for the people using them. I also now understand the DIR argument about fittness, the GUE developers have reconized this problem and are covering their but, by having the same level of fittness as the developers as part of the progam, then their responsability is deminished when someone not so fit gets in trouble.

OK, I lied, that is exactly what I'm saying. TDI, IANTD etc. could teach this stuff, but I haven't heard them teach it. Judging by the acceptance of many things that DIR has introduces, I'm sure they will start teaching some of that stuff soon, if they haven't already. Maybe some instructors will even be great. But maybe they'll be awful.

Well I would say that both IANTD and TDI take all the good from several different systems and philosyphies of diving including DIR and package them into their system which is a living system meaning it is constantly changing with new technologies and advances. and for the obviouse reasons you have pointed out here they have left this part of the system behind for something more acurate, proven, and tested.

Remember GUE didn't develope the gear configuration that they use, they took it and called it their own. whereas other agencies are glad to give credit where credit is due even if they use something of GUE's

 

[Braunbehrens]

None of the computers out there have the correct profile. In any case, even if it did, so now your computer is telling you the wrong thing, the other computer is saying something else...it's so much easier to use the most powerful computer you have. Hint, it's mounted between your ears.

Bungied wings...now there is a whole 'nother topic. I have used them. A plain wing is far superior. Let's save this for another thread, or anyone interested can just look up the techdiver archives.

Crushed neoprene is not so bad, I think most instructors would let you use such a suit since there is very little buoyancy shift. However, I used to own such a suit and switched to a shell suit and like it much better. I'm not really the authority on DIR, just a guy who took a couple GUE classes and who tries to dive DIR.

I am surprised at your statement about fudging the deco. Maybe you don't understand how we do it...I'd rather not go into too much detail here, since a little information can be a dangerous thing. Let's just say that Helium is always looked at as a minimum, so whether you dive 21/35 or 21/50 makes no diff. In terms of oxygen, what we are concerned with is a low PO2 on the bottom. So if you are diving a blown up mix that turned out to be 25/30, then you can just dive it as if it was 21/35 in terms of deco obligations. You have less nitrogen/He to deal with in that mix, so you are simply adding a little bit of conservancy. In terms of MOD you treat it as 30/30.

In any case my examples were simply there to illustrate that knowing how to deco off of a few specific gasses will allow you to use a wide range of gasses. I also made it clear that when you dive one gas as if it was another, you always err on the side of safety in terms of MOD and deco obligation.

There really is no fudging involved.

90% of the time you'll be diving one of the mixes that you know. This situation only arises if you have to blow up a tank on a boat.

If you are one of those people who don't deco as well as others, you will find out and adjust your deco accordingly. One of the things DIR is based on is that you can easily determine if you are doing enough deco. There is lots of info on that in the techdiver archives as well.

If you are out of shape, smoke, etc. then you should probably pick a different activity than tech diving! Every sport demands a certain amount of commitment. If a fat cigarette smoking slob tried to run a triathlon he'd probably die of a heart attack. So if you want to be a fat slob, and I really don't mind, don't run a triathlon.

Part of diving DIR is paying attention to your nutrition, the amount of exercise you get etc. If you don't want to do that, fine. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head. However, it should be noted that fatty tissue is much harder to decompress, and that technical diving is a demanding sport.

 

[tomcat]

i know what you mean. but like i said, for every logical explanation that one can come up with, there will be others that are just as logical.

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Now ask yourself, do you need that clip? Couldn't you simply make the bungee longer?

i could make it longer. and had it like that for a while. maybe my neck and head are funny or something, but if it is long enough to go over my head comfortably with a slim chance of me snapping my ears, then it hangs too low while i'm diving. can't reach it without using hands. don't like it hanging so low either even though it probably doesn't create that much more drag. i like to stick my head into holes. don't like the thought of it snagging onto something where i can't see and have to attempt taking it off, over my mask!

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

You say that it is not a failure point, but that isn't true. Bungees basically don't fail, but clips do. If it's a plastic clip, it's possible that a tank may land on it one day, while you are on the other end of the boat. This may well give the clip a stress fracture, which might cause it to break later with almost no provocation.

a bungee would snap too if you accidentally cut it with a knife. i also think that if you leave equipment lying around like that, you could also have the possibility of other things getting weakened and breaking later when you need it. wings, harnesses, regulators, masks,... but i think that if a tank were to land anywhere near my equipment, the octopus would probably get smashed first. heck, why not my foot along with that?

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Let's say now that your buddy is out of gas, and you donate your primary. You go for your backup, but the clip broke and now it's not there.

I was practicing once with one of my DIR buddies for a class. I noticed that his necklace reg was not where it was supposed to be, he had forgotten to put it on and it was stuck behind his head!

if the octo falls from neck (for any reason), i'd know it. and if it wasn't there, it would be right below my chest cos it just fell off my neck right?

but what you mentioned is probably a more serious concern. no point having the best equipment and systems if you're not going to use them!

Braunbehrens once bubbled...
I'll tell you one more anecdote. I was diving off my boat with 3 other guys. One of them became seasick, and couldn't dive. My gear had a problem, and I was about to call the dive, when he told me I should just dive his rig. I did, and it felt no different than mine. Everything was in the same place, and worked the same way.

seriously now, in your opinion, forgetting what GUE would say, do you think one clip at the back of the neck, really makes such a big difference? is it impossible that one day GI says it's ok, so that the reg hangs closer to your chin?

Braunbehrens once bubbled...

Lastly, a good instructor should be able to patiently explain why something is or isn't a good idea. If anyone gives you too much attitude, be they GUE, TDI or whatever, I suggest finding someone else. There are plenty. I was very happy with my instructor, Andrew Georgitsis.

totally agreed. but my guess is that these guys are few and far in between. many are patient. but not all would understand a different point of view.

 

[Braunbehrens]

I think you're better off having it longer and not being able to reach it with your mouth. If a hole is big enough for you to stick your head in with a mask and a reg then the necklace reg isn't going to snag. If it is, then your mask might snag, or your primary might snag.

A bungee is actually a very nice piece of equipment. They last forever, will not break under normal use, and show signs of wear long before they wear out.

If your necklace reg falls off it might get swept behind you.

I seriously doubt GI will ever OK plastic clips anywhere on a rig.

I think your plastic clip is not a huge big deal, but I just wouldn't do it. I don't think it's trivial either. I certainly wouldn't do a "big" dive with someone who had thier backup held together with a plastic clip, but I would go on some shallow reef dives.

Will you kill yourself because of that clip? Probably not. There are lots of guys diving completely moronic rigs and they're still alive, so you're ahead of the game already. But it's not optimal. I would search for a better solution. Maybe thinner bungee so the reg doesn't push agains your neck as much. This might give you more stretch and make it easier to remove as well. Maybe use surgical tubing instead of bungee, just replace it frequently because it does get damaged by sun light. A good instructor should be able to solve your problem.

 

[DIR Tec Diver]

Comparing TDI to GUE is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Hyundai. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Anyone who willingly chooses to take a TDI course over a GUE course has made a paramount mistake, and listened to way too many stroke divers give their BS reasons to justify their stupidity in choosing a weaker path of training that is complete with horror stories that can fill volumes.

The worst that GUE could do is 1000 times better than any other training agency can do

Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forthe by some people on this board enrage me beyone belief.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DIR Tec Diver once bubbled...
Comparing TDI to GUE is like comparing a Formula 1 race car to a Hyundai. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Anyone who willingly chooses to take a TDI course over a GUE course has made a paramount mistake, and listened to way too many stroke divers give their BS reasons to justify their stupidity in choosing a weaker path of training that is complete with horror stories that can fill volumes.

The worst that GUE could do is 1000 times better than any other training agency can do

Sometimes the comments and stupidity put forthe by some people on this board enrage me beyone belief.

The thought of you being enraged just bothers the daylights out of me. I think I hear quest calling you.