TDI GUE course differences

[tomcat]

Thanks Michael! Now we're getting somewhere. Keep'em coming folks! : )

 

[MikeFerrara]

I tend to agree with most of what Micharl said.

Quality
IANTD and TDI are much bigger than GUE. As such I'm afraid that they don't have much of a handle on quality control so you will find good instructors and bad ones. GUE on the other hand is smaler and newer and at the presant time I think the quality will be more iniform.

Equipment

I don't know about TDI here but IANTD teaches a student what some of the commonly used configurations are and how they should evaluate them. JJ actually has a pretty big section in the IANTD text explaining his rig but so does Lamar Hires. Others can do as they choose but I've been an engineer for a good number of years and anyone who thinks there is only one best solution to a problem is dreaming. The universe just wasn't made that way. So between the two the equipment philosophy is totally different. IANTD tries to teach you to evaluate and improve your equipment while GUE tells you what the answer is. IANTD tries to teach you how to decide what is right next year. GUE says keep in touch we'll tell you what we decided.

Over a year ago I had a conversation right here on this board with someone about how I didbn't like clipping a reel on the butt d-ring. I received all kinds of advice on how to make it work, even in PM's. Now GI says he doesn't do it that way anymore and everyone is taking the reels out of their butt. Either it worked for you or it didn't. I tried it, thought about it and decided it stunk without help.

Decompression
Big difference here to. As far as I know all the agencies with the exception of GUE will insist that you plan your dives within the NOAA O2 exposure limits. Everyone knows that those limits aren't perfect but it's the most established method. The WKPP and GUE in turn have been utilizing other methods with good results. To my knowledge the phisiologists still don't have a clue about why some of the WKPP methods work so it will be a while before other agencied adopt those methods. Some examples would be "the toggle threory"and the way O2 exposure is controled.

When it comes to decompression theory there are different models and methods and it's a moving target. After your class it will be up to you to eveluate current information and decide on a decompression strategy. Heck, just within one decompression software you can run a profile and get 13 minutes of deco with the user adjustable settings one way and 70 minutes with them set another way.

There is a major difference in philosophy.

 

[db8us]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Decompression
Big difference here to. As far as I know all the agencies with the exception of GUE will insist that you plan your dives within the NOAA O2 exposure limits. Everyone knows that those limits aren't perfect but it's the most established method. The WKPP and GUE in turn have been utilizing other methods with good results. To my knowledge the phisiologists still don't have a clue about why some of the WKPP methods work so it will be a while before other agencied adopt those methods. Some examples would be "the toggle threory"and the way O2 exposure is controled.

When it comes to decompression theory there are different models and methods and it's a moving target. After your class it will be up to you to eveluate current information and decide on a decompression strategy. Heck, just within one decompression software you can run a profile and get 13 minutes of deco with the user adjustable settings one way and 70 minutes with them set another way.

There is a major difference in philosophy.

I totally agree with that ! And this one of the "critics" i hear about the Tech-1. People still tend to think that there is a "safe and valid deco for each profile with 1 Second-intervals to follow.

So for the "newbies" it is hard to live with the fact that deco is not a "formula"....

Michael

And to be fair about my TDI and IANTD statements:
They were before year 2000

 

[Doppler]

tomcat once bubbled...
I'm thinking about going into deco/trimix diving and have been gathering information on GUE and TDI courses. GUE is rather informative about course standards and topics covered but I couldn't find out much about TDI.

Would like to have your opinion on:

a. Significant differences between GUE and TDI tech courses (not cave/penetration courses)

b. Major advantages that each curriculum has over the other

c. Major disadvantages that each curriculum has over the other

d. Time/$$ differences between the two

thanks in advance!

Hi Tomcat:

First: I have to declare a conflict of interest... I am and I-T for TDI! However, JJ was also my cave instructor and I have a great deal of respect for him.

OK that out of the way, I will say that like most instructors at this level (trimix) my courses do not "follow" the outline put out by the agency. I think this is true of TDI, IANTD and any other agency. In my case, my courses meet what TDI says are minimum standards, but I encourage instructors and am encouraged by my "boss" to develop something that reflects the needs of local conditions and the experience gathered doing dives in those condidtions. My course outline for example, bears little resemblance to the one given me by TDI and my exams are my exams and are actually very different to TDIs. I teach Hogathian techniques and point out to students that some of the things suggested in TDI manuals will get them hurt if they try that **** in the Great Lakes. An example, the tables used in the manuals and the gas mixes make little sense. VPM and RGBM are now taught as standard here, a major deviation from TDI "law." For example teaching 80/20 is silly and I don't know any TDI instructors still teaching deep air.

The major difference from what I can see is that GUE has a strong brand and set course curriculum. There is less latitude for the instructor. This has good and bad points. By the way, I feel GUE materials are very good. There are some faults but it is impossible to produce course materials that are suitable for all conditions globally.)

One of the outcomes of GUE's policy is much tighter quality control. The cadre of instructors right now seem to be excellent divers and the majority are fine instructors. With a small organization, this is possible. I have my opinion of how management issues might be handled as GUE grows, but that's all about management style and MBA stuff which we can discuss in another thread if you wish.

As an agency TDI has suffered greatly in the past because of I-Ts and instructors who cut corners. I recently refused to certify a trimix instructor who had, in my opinion, fast-tracked his way from openwater instructor to deco instructor and frankly was a mess in the water. He went to another IT and got certified... Bad mark for TDI in my opinion. However, we are trying to clean that sort of bull**** up. It will take time and likely there will always be crappy instructors.

The question you may ask then is why do I teach for TDI... well apart from being a friend of the founders -- which does allow me some licence -- I find the support is there. Running a teaching business is easy with TDI backing me up and supplying materials.

What does all this mean? We go right back to the old adage interview instructors. Listen to what they say and ask for referrals. You are buying a very expensive course and committing a lot of time to it. Make sure the chemistry between you and your instructor and the scope of the course feel right to you.

Good luck

Doppler

 

[sheck33]

AquaTec once bubbled...
Shek33
Nice responce....lets keep PADI out of this unless you are speaking of the Tec Deep etc.

This is about tech diving only. GUE teaches tech diving skills so of course there is a big difference between any rec organisation's teaching and any tech organisation.

I don't think Mike nor I where seriously bashing GUE, it was more of a response to the two people who responded to the seriouse question with "my dad is bigger than your dad"

I would love to hear what you think about the differences are between the two agencies. keeping the skill level the same. ie deco procedure/trimix from both agencies.

the one real big difference i know of is the way GUE perfrms their deco, it may not be better..it is just different.

this is about the differences between the two training organisations for the entry level deco diver

I dont agree. The whole GUE versus the rest of the world is not just about tech diving. PADI does have a place in the 'discussion'
GUE's approach is just as valid in tech diving as it is in rec diving. At the moment i do still care, it frustrates me to see divers come out of classes they paid money for and not know much more than they did going into the class. It frustrates me to see divesites destroyed because divers where never taught what real bouyancy control is.

PADI should stay away from anything technical until they straighten out their recreational program.

differences between the 2 agenciesas i see them:

GUE focuses on basic skills BEFORE even letting you into a tech class. Basic skills being mainly bouyancy, buddy awareness & gear. The people in my deco class should not have been in the class to begin with. Again this is true for rec or tec dives.

Gear: standardized gear makes perfect sense. Having 5 divers and 5 different gear configurations is a bad thing when something goes wrong. Be it a tec or rec dive, it doesnt matter. When i dive with my GF i dont have to inspect her gear to see what item is located where, i know her setup because it is identical to mine. ( of course pre dive checks are still done)

TDI deco procedures simply ignores gas consumption on ascents and descents. On deeper dives you cant ignore that. TDI has an everyone for himself attitude. Gas calculations ignore the dive buddy. So while airmanagement in PADI classes is completely missing in TDI it is incomplete.

cutting corners, and i have seen that with both TDI and PADI but mostly PADI, instructors that have no business being an instructor. This is were PADI quality assurance completely fails.

GUE requires a far larger number of dives before admitting students to higher level classes. PADI allows you get AOW within 10 dives...ridiculous.

TDI promotes deep air dives. I have been (too) deep on air, it is stupid.

TDI's use of an 80/20 mix for deco instead of 100% O2 as a means to compensate for lacking bouyany skills laughable.

If GUE grows quality assurance gets harder no doubt. If GUE ever starts cutting corners like PADI & TDI do i will move away from GUE.

Repetition: GUE makes you do stuff over and over. Which is a good thing, what good is it if i take off my mask in OW once sitting on the bottom and then never practice this again in any other class???

too many people do not realize how unforgiving the underwater environment is. You get away with cutting corners in your training until you dont.

I have by the way been thinking about doing the PADI tec program just to find out if it is any better than the rec stuff they do. If i do i'll let you know what i think

I hope this is a more detailed response as to why i think GUE is the better agency.

 

[MikeFerrara]

sheck33,

I hate to say it but I'm being assimilated. It has been a very hard lesson and has cost almost all that I have. Here is the way it shakes out.

The PADI system is exactly what it is intended to be and does what it's designed to do. It is what the majority of the diving public wants and they will not settle for anything else even when available. They have no desire to spend much time, effort or money becomming a good diver. They don't want to be good divers. They want to be able to survive long enough to see the reef and then go have coctails with their freinds. I just blew through the last of my modest life savings trying to convince divers they could and should dive better.

They are right. You are wrong. I am wrong. I have the reciepts to prove it.

For the few who really do want to learn to dive there are places and ways. The fact remains though that they are the FEW.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PADI and tech diving.

Call it tech sight seeing if you want but they will issue oodles of cards. Places like Bakini will do business like never before. Little islands in the middle of nowere that don't have a set of doubles or a boat going to tech sites will have all the gear on hand and the charters at reasonable prices. Some will be horizontal in the water, some will be standing up but all will have fun and few will die. The ones who want to be good will.

Every one will be running around hoppily singing little PADI songs. If DIR gets much bigger they will come out with their own DIR class and really sell it. They might even buy the WKPP and put a picture of GI on the cover of the tec rec manual.

There may even be DIR resorts, DIR boats, cups, t-shirts. You DIR guys will be in DIR paradise. PADI DIR that is. Oh and they'll kneel on the bottom and nobody will care.

 

[O-ring]

WIth TDI, IMO, instructor choice is important. You can get all the way through the TDI Advanced Trimix level and have never touched a bottle of 80% or breathed air past 100'.

You can't look at just the standards..those are the minimum...good instructors cover the standards but teach you the right way to do things and keep in touch with current best practices.

GUE has higher standards...that we can all agree on I think..

 

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...

GUE has higher standards...that we can all agree on I think..

After PADI takes over that will be corrected.

 

[sheck33]

I guess the one thing i have to just get past is the fact that most divers just dont care to become proficient and safe. Most divers just dont care they destroy reefs. And the mainstream dive industry will continue to serve them with c-cards.....;-0

Mike: why do you still teach PADI classes?