"Swim-through" okay for open water divers?

[scubadada]

Hi @DVNGN8-E

Who were you diving with? According to to your profile, you do not have many dives either. Did the operator respond to your complaints? How were your subsequent dives? I assume you will choose a different operator if you return to Roatan.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

How timely this topic is…

I just returned from a few dives in Roatan where I was buddied-up (by the dive outfit) with a VERY newly certified diver (he had received his OW the day before and didn’t even have a permanent number yet). During our ride out to the sites acknowledged that he wasn’t yet comfortable with his trim & buoyancy and during our first dive I could see why. He was task loading and more focused on his non-tethered GoPro that he kept dropping rather than continuing to get comfortable underwater and honing his skills & buoyancy. Several times he was knocking into the sponges and corals while trying to “get the shot” and stirring up the sediment in the process. I talked to him about what I observed during the surface interval, and he acknowledged all that I mentioned and suggested. Then came the second dive…

We were taken to another location on our second dive that had zero current but more valleys, semi-enclosed overhead formations, and overall varied reef structures. Our DM would check in with us regularly but allowed us all to explore and dive at our own pace - which I enjoyed since I was having a great time viewing the flora & fauna (and mighty proud of my buoyancy and trim control - lol!). At one point my buddy - who was nowhere near the DM - decided he was going to go through an unfamiliar swim through that was mostly obscured and angled at a downward descent towards an unknown exit point. He tried to get me to go, to which I signaled no and tried to tell him not to, then when I refused he dropped and started going through. I looked around for the DM to signal with my light that he needed to get over there and stop this, but with no success. I watched my buddy’s bubbles rise through the cracks as he made his way through the unknown and finally exited out over a reef wall about 40’ from where he entered. At this point, I was livid but the buddy was cheering and celebrating like he had just won a million dollars. A thousand what-ifs ran through my head while he was down there, and all I wanted to do after was let him know how irresponsible his actions were - and that in no way was he ready to do that again.

We finished the dive roughly 20 minutes later with his continued GoPro dropping and sediment stirring even as I was trying to get him to refocus and/or end the dive early. On surface I asked him how he thought he was ready for that and his reply was that he “just went for it”. Never was I so happy to be done with a buddy to-date. I have a feeling that at some point he’s going to be a statistic, though I don’t wish that on him or anyone with whom he dives.

My few observations - and I’m open to any feedback and/or suggestions on how to address this in the future:
1) incorrect pairing from the start. The dive outfit didn’t take the time to assess the individuals’ skill levels and pair accordingly - they just asked “does everyone have a buddy?” then paired us up from there. Had they checked I wonder if they would have paired differently (I still have a lower number of dives at 26, but have been diving conservatively since certified in multiple locations, and focused on buoyancy since the beginning)
2) unattentive DM with too large of a diver-to-DM ratio. We were 1:10 with all ranges of ages and levels - better planning and lower ratios might have helped this.
3) clear-cut expectations from the dive op and DM. Most places I’ve dived with have been very clear about the plan and what can/cannot be done by the divers. This was minimal at-best with this op - which was disappointing for several reasons, mainly because this is a PADI 5-star training Go Pro training center, and it was where I had a phenomenal first Discover Scuba experience which led me to certify.

My apologies for the length of the post, but felt it was appropriate and timely for the group…

Happy SAFE diving!

Don't let anyone buddy you up with an unknown person. Period. End of story. If you feel you need a buddy, ask around and see if you can pair up with someone. But before you get in the water, have a frank and honest discussion about your experience and skills.
In the case where a buddy leaves you, screw em. Surface at a safe rate and end the dive if you are not ok with continuing it solo.
There is no way in hell I will let an op buddy me up with someone.
If they ask, the answer is no. Unless they are willing to sign a waiver I keep in my log book, comp me the dive, and pay me 50-125 bucks depending on the dive to do it.
And 5 star doesn't mean shite. Other than they pay extra money and buy extra crap along with only teaching PADI courses.
Always be prepared to tell the DM to sod off and dive your plan. You should have a plan anyway. If it aligns with the DM's, fine. If it doesn't dive yours.
Never rely on a DM or guide to keep you safe and develop a safe plan. NEVER.

 

[DVNGN8-E]

Hi @DVNGN8-E

Who were you diving with? According to to your profile, you do not have many dives either. Did the operator respond to your complaints? How were your subsequent dives? I assume you will choose a different operator if you return to Roatan.

You’re correct - I do not have many dives, which I acknowledged in my post. Nor do I profess to be intermediate or advanced, but there is a distinct difference in dive 1 vs dive 26. The dive op took the feedback and said they would address the DM and the diver separately. This was the last dive of the trip, and yes I’ll choose a different op on my return to Roatan.

 

[DVNGN8-E]

Don't let anyone buddy you up with an unknown person. Period. End of story. If you feel you need a buddy, ask around and see if you can pair up with someone. But before you get in the water, have a frank and honest discussion about your experience and skills.
In the case where a buddy leaves you, screw em. Surface at a safe rate and end the dive if you are not ok with continuing it solo.
There is no way in hell I will let an op buddy me up with someone.
If they ask, the answer is no. Unless they are willing to sign a waiver I keep in my log book, comp me the dive, and pay me 50-125 bucks depending on the dive to do it.
And 5 star doesn't mean shite. Other than they pay extra money and buy extra crap along with only teaching PADI courses.
Always be prepared to tell the DM to sod off and dive your plan. You should have a plan anyway. If it aligns with the DM's, fine. If it doesn't dive yours.
Never rely on a DM or guide to keep you safe and develop a safe plan. NEVER.

Great advice - thanks Jim!

 

[Belzelbub]

First of all, from the description, I agree with your assessment of your insta buddy. Dive 1 post cert is way to early to add any hand held items to a dive. A handsfree might be OK, but probably best to wait a bit. Even though you are a newish diver, it sounds like you are approaching things the right way. Most importantly, you seem to be diving within your comfort level and not being pressured into taking unnecessary risks. So, good job.

Please don’t take anything I say below as being critical. I mean it as something to think about, and don’t intend it to be critical.

1) incorrect pairing from the start. The dive outfit didn’t take the time to assess the individuals’ skill levels and pair accordingly - they just asked “does everyone have a buddy?” then paired us up from there. Had they checked I wonder if they would have paired differently (I still have a lower number of dives at 26, but have been diving conservatively since certified in multiple locations, and focused on buoyancy since the beginning)

I’m not sure they would have paired you up differently, or should have. As it turns out, they managed to pair a couple fairly new divers by luck. They might have decided to have the DM stick a bit closer to the two of you than a pair of divers with more experience. But, I wouldn’t expect they pair the brand new diver with an experienced diver so that diver could keep an eye on him. The more experienced diver is a paying customer as well, so they shouldn’t have to babysit a newbie, unless they are being compensated for it.

I do think it’s reasonable to at least try to gauge experience levels. Not for buddy pairing, but to identify who might need more guidance.

2) unattentive DM with too large of a diver-to-DM ratio. We were 1:10 with all ranges of ages and levels - better planning and lower ratios might have helped this.

There are many of us on here that have never dived with a DM, so that 1:10 ratio might not be terrible. I have no idea as I’m one of those that has never dove with a DM in that capacity outside of a training dive.

On a charter dive, the DM should really only need to serve as a guide to show the customers around the site.

An OW diver is an autonomous diver, so they should be able to handle dives without the assistance of a DM.

The fault in this case lies with the buddy, and maybe partially with whoever certified them. Sounds like they did a resort course, which are often not known for stellar instruction. Even so, the fault in this case sounds like it lies mostly with the diver.

3) clear-cut expectations from the dive op and DM. Most places I’ve dived with have been very clear about the plan and what can/cannot be done by the divers. This was minimal at-best with this op - which was disappointing for several reasons, mainly because this is a PADI 5-star training Go Pro training center, and it was where I had a phenomenal first Discover Scuba experience which led me to certify.

Agree with you here. A briefing should have gone over what to expect at the site. Not sure if that would have helped in this case, but it should have been discussed.

 

[DVNGN8-E]

First of all, from the description, I agree with your assessment of your insta buddy. Dive 1 post cert is way to early to add any hand held items to a dive. A handsfree might be OK, but probably best to wait a bit. Even though you are a newish diver, it sounds like you are approaching things the right way. Most importantly, you seem to be diving within your comfort level and not being pressured into taking unnecessary risks. So, good job.

Please don’t take anything I say below as being critical. I mean it as something to think about, and don’t intend it to be critical.

I’m not sure they would have paired you up differently, or should have. As it turns out, they managed to pair a couple fairly new divers by luck. They might have decided to have the DM stick a bit closer to the two of you than a pair of divers with more experience. But, I wouldn’t expect they pair the brand new diver with an experienced diver so that diver could keep an eye on him. The more experienced diver is a paying customer as well, so they shouldn’t have to babysit a newbie, unless they are being compensated for it.

I do think it’s reasonable to at least try to gauge experience levels. Not for buddy pairing, but to identify who might need more guidance.

There are many of us on here that have never dived with a DM, so that 1:10 ratio might not be terrible. I have no idea as I’m one of those that has never dove with a DM in that capacity outside of a training dive.

On a charter dive, the DM should really only need to serve as a guide to show the customers around the site.

An OW diver is an autonomous diver, so they should be able to handle dives without the assistance of a DM.

The fault in this case lies with the buddy, and maybe partially with whoever certified them. Sounds like they did a resort course, which are often not known for stellar instruction. Even so, the fault in this case sounds like it lies mostly with the diver.

Agree with you here. A briefing should have gone over what to expect at the site. Not sure if that would have helped in this case, but it should have been discussed.

Thanks Brian - this is great info and I agree with all that you’ve mentioned. As you picked up, I’m definitely still learning and keeping an open mind about it all and in no way think I know all there is to know about diving. But as my first instructor always said, I’m going with my gut on this one and it didn’t feel right as it was happening so I took a more conservative approach to the dive, and am trying to learn the lessons post-dive for the future.

Thanks for the feedback and mentorship!

 

[rx7diver]

... I just returned from a few dives in Roatan where I was buddied-up (by the dive outfit) with a VERY newly certified diver (he had received his OW the day before and didn’t even have a permanent number yet). ... At one point my buddy - who was nowhere near the DM - decided he was going to go through an unfamiliar swim through that was mostly obscured and angled at a downward descent towards an unknown exit point. He tried to get me to go, to which I signaled no and tried to tell him not to, then when I refused he dropped and started going through. I looked around for the DM to signal with my light that he needed to get over there and stop this, but with no success. I watched my buddy’s bubbles rise through the cracks as he made his way through the unknown and finally exited out over a reef wall about 40’ from where he entered. At this point, I was livid but the buddy was cheering and celebrating like he had just won a million dollars. A thousand what-ifs ran through my head while he was down there, and all I wanted to do after was let him know how irresponsible his actions were - and that in no way was he ready to do that again. ...

This is very scary! I had this kind of thing in mind, too, when I wrote the op. One reason why many (most?) open water courses preach never swim into any overhead environment, is that new or inexperienced divers simply won't know what the risks are. (Many/most open water courses will not pay even only lip service to these risks.)

Kudos to you for choosing to not accompany your assigned dive buddy on what might have been his, and/or your, last dive!

By the way, assuming you don't know, one way of getting someone's attention is to repeatedly bang your dive knife against your dive cylinder. Had you done that here, the dive master might have come over immediately to investigate.

rx7diver

 

[Catito]

Oh, I am very familiar with the term. I was just calling it out because as someone who has done hundreds of excellent dives with excellent divers on such boats, I consider the use of the term to be arrogant and offensive. I don't like being compared to cattle by someone who is implying his vast superiority to me through the use of the term.

Interesting. I never thought “cattle boat” was a term directed at the divers. I have heard it used as a negative term for those operations who crowd too many divers onto their boats in order to make more money and disregard the need to provide the divers with a comfortable space for gearing up and sitting.

 

[boulderjohn]

One reason why many (most?) open water courses preach never swim into any overhead environment, is that new or inexperienced divers simply won't know what the risks are.

An alternative approach would be to teach them about the risks so they don't have to use trial and error to find out.

 

[arew+4]

An alternative approach would be to teach them about the risks so they don't have to use trial and error to find out.

Because that won't lead to law suits...