"Swim-through" okay for open water divers?

[boulderjohn]

Really? You know the point I'm making. Agencies could care less about turning out qualified divers and the majority of the scuba instructors out there shouldn't be allowed to use sharp objects.

Disagree? Go diving off a cattle boat in Key Largo or Ft Lauderdale.

So the point is your belief that all the current agents turn out bad divers, which has nothing to do whatsoever with the topic at hand.

Your use of the pejorative term "cattle boat" is interesting to me. I would like a definition. I have been diving the wrecks just north of Fort Lauderdale every winter for many years. I assume I did those dives on the "cattle boats" you are talking about. I go through the swim throughs on those wrecks every time, and I don't see anyone doing that who does not appear to be unsafe to do so. As a single diver, I do those dives with instabuddies regularly. Three days ago I had a young woman who was a pretty infrequent diver join me on the Lady Luck, and she did an excellent job going through a variety of corridors and rooms with me.

Maybe I just lack your discerning eye, but I would never describe any of those fellow divers as "cattle."

 

[rgkv]

Since you decided not to answer my question, I will ask it again. What class specifically teaches students to enter overhead environments such as short swim-throughs like the wheelhouse of a wreck? I ask because I am sure i have seen hundreds of posts on ScubaBoard telling divers not to go into even the simplest overhead environment without certification. I am just asking for the name of that certification.

I don't think there is a certification for swim through.. If fact I know there isn't . I have had an instructor tell me I cant do that because I'm not trained to handle a situation.. I asked "What do I need to know to go to the big hole on the other side" No answer!!! I understand a cave is a no go without training but a swim through??? Especially one where you can see the other exit

 

[100days-a-year]

So the point is your belief that all the current agents turn out bad divers, which has nothing to do whatsoever with the topic at hand.

Your use of the pejorative term "cattle boat" is interesting to me. I would like a definition. I have been diving the wrecks just north of Fort Lauderdale every winter for many years. I assume I did those dives on the "cattle boats" you are talking about. I go through the swim throughs on those wrecks every time, and I don't see anyone doing that who does not appear to be unsafe to do so. As a single diver, I do those dives with instabuddies regularly. Three days ago I had a young woman who was a pretty infrequent diver join me on the Lady Luck, and she did an excellent job going through a variety of corridors and rooms with me.

Maybe I just lack your discerning eye, but I would never describe any of those fellow divers as "cattle."

The term and the definitions of cattle boats have been used and discussed here for many years both as pejorative and as a description of any boat larger than a 6pack.

Cattle Boat, what does that mean to you?

Cattle Boat (CB) is a term that is tossed around with regularity, but after many years of diving I wonder if there is a meaningful definition... I sure haven't seen one anywhere on the net. True enough, most folks pass judgement on boats that carry more than X number of passengers and decry...

scubaboard.com

On topic, " Live and let dive "

 

[mcohen1021]

One more thing about the swimthroughs...

Is anyone like me, just over them? I mean cmon, they're overrated... 95% of the time, I hover over the wall while the group goes through the swimthrough... if it's a family scuba trip, I'm often waiting at the exit to catch them swimming out of it.

This last trip to Cozumel, everyone in the swimthrough, I was over the wall, I was the only one to see an eagle ray. No, it wasn't narcosis before anyone asks

 

[boulderjohn]

The term and the definitions of cattle boats have been used and discussed here for many years both as pejorative and as a description of any boat larger than a 6pack.

Cattle Boat, what does that mean to you?

Cattle Boat (CB) is a term that is tossed around with regularity, but after many years of diving I wonder if there is a meaningful definition... I sure haven't seen one anywhere on the net. True enough, most folks pass judgement on boats that carry more than X number of passengers and decry...

scubaboard.com

On topic, " Live and let dive "

Oh, I am very familiar with the term. I was just calling it out because as someone who has done hundreds of excellent dives with excellent divers on such boats, I consider the use of the term to be arrogant and offensive. I don't like being compared to cattle by someone who is implying his vast superiority to me through the use of the term.

 

[Doctorfish]

I also think swimthroughs overrated. You might see a crab or lobster but usually a lot of nothing except the fins of a diver in front of you. If you are first through, however, you might occasionally see a pelagic out on the wall before it gets scared away by the crowd. I almost always go around/over unless we are on our own, or in a small group, and and can see daylight through the opening.

I've done a lot of diving and have good buoyancy but figure, why put yourself in a claustrophobic environment unless you have to. Obviously I am not a cave or wreck diver.

Glad the topic is being shifted to what is or is not a cattle boat. I can't give you a definition but definitely recognize one when I experience it.

 

[EFX]

Really? You know the point I'm making. Agencies could care less about turning out qualified divers and the majority of the scuba instructors out there shouldn't be allowed to use sharp objects.

Your comment that agencies could care less about turning out qualified divers needs itself to be qualified. @stuartv, long ago in another thread, mentioned that the recreational agencies certify divers according to knowledge and not by proficiency in skills, provided those skills are basic proficiency in mask clearing, buoyancy, the ability to receive and give air, and monitor gas supply and depth. The qualifications you demand are those that GUE, UTD, and other tec oriented agencies require: a proficiency to skills (other than basic) on a much higher level than what recreational agencies teach. The recreational agencies do care about turning out divers that are safe and qualified in basic skills according to the knowledge designed for that certification.

 

[Saboteur]

I also think swimthroughs overrated. You might see a crab or lobster but usually a lot of nothing except the fins of a diver in front of you. If you are first through, however, you might occasionally see a pelagic out on the wall before it gets scared away by the crowd. I almost always go around/over unless we are on our own, or in a small group, and and can see daylight through the opening.

I've done a lot of diving and have good buoyancy but figure, why put yourself in a claustrophobic environment unless you have to. Obviously I am not a cave or wreck diver.

Glad the topic is being shifted to what is or is not a cattle boat. I can't give you a definition but definitely recognize one when I experience it.

Yep, they are very dim, nothing to see unless you have a light to get some colours and check out the holes. No time to linger and look for small critters. I enjoy other parts of the dives much more, sometimes even safety stops. The more people there are in the train the less I enjoy it.

 

[scubadada]

Solo diving is fantastic

 

[DVNGN8-E]

How timely this topic is…

I just returned from a few dives in Roatan where I was buddied-up (by the dive outfit) with a VERY newly certified diver (he had received his OW the day before and didn’t even have a permanent number yet). During our ride out to the sites acknowledged that he wasn’t yet comfortable with his trim & buoyancy and during our first dive I could see why. He was task loading and more focused on his non-tethered GoPro that he kept dropping rather than continuing to get comfortable underwater and honing his skills & buoyancy. Several times he was knocking into the sponges and corals while trying to “get the shot” and stirring up the sediment in the process. I talked to him about what I observed during the surface interval, and he acknowledged all that I mentioned and suggested. Then came the second dive…

We were taken to another location on our second dive that had zero current but more valleys, semi-enclosed overhead formations, and overall varied reef structures. Our DM would check in with us regularly but allowed us all to explore and dive at our own pace - which I enjoyed since I was having a great time viewing the flora & fauna (and mighty proud of my buoyancy and trim control - lol!). At one point my buddy - who was nowhere near the DM - decided he was going to go through an unfamiliar swim through that was mostly obscured and angled at a downward descent towards an unknown exit point. He tried to get me to go, to which I signaled no and tried to tell him not to, then when I refused he dropped and started going through. I looked around for the DM to signal with my light that he needed to get over there and stop this, but with no success. I watched my buddy’s bubbles rise through the cracks as he made his way through the unknown and finally exited out over a reef wall about 40’ from where he entered. At this point, I was livid but the buddy was cheering and celebrating like he had just won a million dollars. A thousand what-ifs ran through my head while he was down there, and all I wanted to do after was let him know how irresponsible his actions were - and that in no way was he ready to do that again.

We finished the dive roughly 20 minutes later with his continued GoPro dropping and sediment stirring even as I was trying to get him to refocus and/or end the dive early. On surface I asked him how he thought he was ready for that and his reply was that he “just went for it”. Never was I so happy to be done with a buddy to-date. I have a feeling that at some point he’s going to be a statistic, though I don’t wish that on him or anyone with whom he dives.

My few observations - and I’m open to any feedback and/or suggestions on how to address this in the future:
1) incorrect pairing from the start. The dive outfit didn’t take the time to assess the individuals’ skill levels and pair accordingly - they just asked “does everyone have a buddy?” then paired us up from there. Had they checked I wonder if they would have paired differently (I still have a lower number of dives at 26, but have been diving conservatively since certified in multiple locations, and focused on buoyancy since the beginning)
2) unattentive DM with too large of a diver-to-DM ratio. We were 1:10 with all ranges of ages and levels - better planning and lower ratios might have helped this.
3) clear-cut expectations from the dive op and DM. Most places I’ve dived with have been very clear about the plan and what can/cannot be done by the divers. This was minimal at-best with this op - which was disappointing for several reasons, mainly because this is a PADI 5-star training Go Pro training center, and it was where I had a phenomenal first Discover Scuba experience which led me to certify.

My apologies for the length of the post, but felt it was appropriate and timely for the group…

Happy SAFE diving!