Standardized Prices?

[TSandM]

How many people want to take that much time off work, or spend their holiday, learning something that will put them in the same position as those who don't. They'll wind up at the same vacation spot, diving with the same fellow tourists, being led by the same DM. How many want to forgo those holidays to save the money needed for that same course. How do you sell them on the idea that it is something they need.

Have them spend a couple of hours reading the "Near Misses" subforum here. Read about running out of gas, losing buoyancy control, losing buddies, Read the threads elsewhere from people who want to know how to keep their video from being shaky, or how to take a better photo. Better skills mean safer diving, less stressful diving, and more fun, as you can spend more of your attention on the things you actually want to do.

90% of my diving is single tank, open water diving at recreational depths, often with a camera. Doing the GUE training meant that, when Peter and I got swept away from the group in strong current in the PI, we stayed together, shot a bag, and surfaced where the boats could still see us. GUE training meant that, the night Peter thought he'd gotten bad gas, we established an air share and got safely and comfortably back to shore, after a very clear discussion of whether we needed to ascend right where we were, or could swim closer to shore. GUE training is why my dive buddy and I today spent over 60 minutes on a beautiful dive site, moving in and out of clefts in the rock by going forward into them and backing carefully out. It's why I could swim over to my buddy at his signal and descend to about an inch off the bottom, to peer under a rock at a beautiful big octopus, and then ascend and back up without disturbing anything at all. It's why I could hang, absolutely immobile, for about ten minutes, among the stalks of the bull kelp, watching black rockfish, shiner perch, sand lances, Puget Sound rockfish and pile perch swirl around me.

Better skills means better diving. Better teamwork means less stress and more fun.

I think the GUE technical classes are excellent, but there IS excellent technical training available elsewhere. Where I firmly, passionately believe the GUE approach to diving has the most to offer, is to the simple recreational diver who never intends to do anything else.

 

[DaleC]

In the sense that we all agree that divers should want to be skilled I don't think there is much debate. What I am saying is GUE training suggests a paradigm shift that many don't need/want. In the other courses listed you advance within the mainstream framework, in a linear fashion. GUE rewrites the book in a very fundamental way (pun intended).

It's like people who get a drivers license to commute back and forth to work. A small sub group takes advanced training developed by F1 racers. Handling, mechanics, team dynamics, the whole works... Of course each participant will swear the training made them better commuters but try telling the average commuter they need this level of training. That's what you are trying to do.

Probably for many who take GUE/UTD training, diving is more than a water cooler moment. But for the average diver, that's all it is. For most people driving is just a necessary mode of transportation, for a few it's a passion worth investing in. What you really struggle with is not convincing the average diver the investment is reasonable - It's in instilling the passion that makes the investment seem reasonable.

Unfortunately, you are competing with a dive industry that creates passion not via training, but through more and more exotic destination diving. The buzz is not frog kicking, it's cenotes, Palau and whale sharks.

 

[Greg_Vic_Diver]

You're making a lot of assumptions. I think you should actually take the course then state your opinions based on your experience and if it helped you have more fun at your exotic dive destinations.

---------- Post added August 23rd, 2014 at 09:57 PM ----------

After the course, you can choose whether or not GUE style of diving is for you - but without question, people who take the course learn skills they can use on regular recreational dives...and they then have more fun on those dives!

 

[DaleC]

Yeah, you got me figured out..me and my exotic dive destinations.

But what does this really mean? "people who take the course learn skills they can use on regular recreational dives...and they then have more fun on those dives!" Could you not say the same about a solo diving or fish ID course. People choose PADI because that's "The way the world learns to dive".

It is what it is. Maybe I am full of it and people aren't taking fundies for some other reason I haven't seen. Maybe the font for the course material is wrong or the colour scheme clashes, but I doubt it. Good luck polling people who have taken the course as to why others might not think it's worth it. That's way smarter than listening to people who thought about taking the course but didn''t.

If it's ok I think I can decide whether to take a course without taking the course to decide whether to take the course. Heavens forbid you should ever contemplate playing Russian roulette.

 

[eelnoraa]

It's like people who get a drivers license to commute back and forth to work. A small sub group takes advanced training developed by F1 racers. Handling, mechanics, team dynamics, the whole works... Of course each participant will swear the training made them better commuters but try telling the average commuter they need this level of training. That's what you are trying to do.

I actually think that, at least in the United States, if the requirement for having a driver license is higher, the road will be safer. The standard today is just way too low. Now, I didn't say all divers are bad. But the common denominstor is very low. Same for PADI.

 

[mathauck0814]

A big part of improving as a diver is having someone of a high caliber observe and correct you. No amount of watching youtube and "practicing" gets you that.

We see hundreds of divers every month come through the charter boat operation that I work with occasionally. If I were to ask them how they'd rate their skills 90% would say "above average". Either we're getting the creme de la creme or people are just delusional about their skillset.

You get what you pay for.

 

[DaleC]

Ok, good luck raising the requirement for a drivers license in the US.

The discussion was revolving around whether the price for training was too high and if that was a barrier for some people taking it. Of course, if you've already taken the training you will have a different opinion. I spend time on the vintage boards, because that's how I like to approach diving. Would you believe there are vintage divers there who think modern divers are inadequately trained and that would benefit from diving in their style. They can't understand why more people don't want to dive vintage...

DIR, solo, vintage.. these are just small sub sets of diving that appeal to some people, but not to most. If the entry cost (money/time/effort) is low, some will try it. If the cost is high, fewer will. We look at the big pool of divers and wonder why not, but that pool is so big because the entry cost has been made so low. All divers are not equal, both in motivation and commitment.

Mat, you say you get what you pay for. That's correct. All those people going through the charter got what they paid for. What is being discussed here is why don't they want to pay for something other..

You also say "no amount of practice will help you improve as a diver - you need someone of a high caliber to observe you". How do you know this? what evidence do you have to show it, besides observing some divers, at the lower end of the spectrum, on charters. It sounds good, like conventional wisdom does to those who are within the paradigm, but in reality many many people become good divers without being observed in this way or taking fundies.

 

[TSandM]

I have actually started threads in the past, asking why people don't take Fundies. Number one is the gear requirement. Number two is not having an instructor nearby, and number three is that they wouldn't have a similarly trained buddy to dive with after the class. I can't remember many people mentioning price.

Dale, I do understand what you are saying. You can't motivate people to work hard to learn to be good at something, if they don't care if they are good at it at all. But I think we would see more people seeking out this level of training, if there were more role models out there.

Although I remember an incredibly sad thread from a few years back, where someone had been impressed with the elegance, grace and teamwork of a GUE group in the Caribbean, but had sadly concluded that that skill level was beyond him. It isn't. I got there, so anybody can!

 

[DaleC]

I agree about good role models. But will those role models function within the same organization as most people, or exist outside of it. And will they encourage people to improve where they are, or insist they need to go somewhere else (agency wise).

There are other ways to increase motivation. One way is to control access to sites and make DIR training a prerequisite, ala WKPP. Hard to do, but if the sites were interesting enough people would be tempted to pay the entrance fee. A second way would be for GUE/UTD to get involved in adventure film/documentary production, highlighting average divers doing amazing rec dives (so the audience can relate) in a DIR fashion. There are a lot of dive shows out there on the nature channels that encourage people to take up diving but I have never seen one with a DIR focus - except for caves. All of those new divers get captured by other agencies.

But would GUE/UTD be comfortable marketing themselves to the entry level diver? Could it put aside it's techcentric view of diving and humble itself to be a contender to capture divers who really only have rec aspirations? People may think they want to capture the initial market but that can be a double edged sword. The direction of UTD vs GUE comes to mind.

If the number of recreational GUE/UTD divers outnumbers the technical, would they have legitimacy in altering the regime to better reflect their needs. Case in point: mixed team diving that leads to the Z system so SM divers can maintain BM procedures. I suspect you would see further fracturing between purist and revisionist DIR philosophies.

 

[PfcAJ]

There are other ways to increase motivation. One way is to control access to sites and make DIR training a prerequisite, ala WKPP.

Point of information: the WKPP no longer requires GUE training to join. Current requirements are full cave, 100 post class cave dives, and a trimix certification.

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