Stages: 1/2+200 or 1/3rds

[ScubaDocER]

Training standards do not allow it for the cave agencies I teach for. IANTD allows it for the Technical Cave Diver rating, but is not a requirement.

It should be taught in a regular cave class, I agree. It used to be.

I was not taught staging in my NSS-CDS Full Cave class but was in my GUE Cave 2 class. I agree that it should be addressed as part of the Full Cave experience but I was under the impression that it was something that was taught after Full Cave. I am glad that I was exposed to it through GUE and Tyler taught us 1/2 + 200 with the stage reserves kept in our back gas. Worked well for me and my dive buddy.

 

[karstdvr]

and handing off stages isn't the way I want to be handling out of gas emergencies. burn that stage up and get rid of it. it just slows you down

Why?

I would much rather have paniced out of air diver on a stage they can control versus having them 7' away from me on a long hose. Now initially giving the long hose is needed for the emergency,but then my preference is to hand the person a stage (with 2/3rds left preferably) once "the dust settles". In OOA scooter scenarios,having to share air on exit can be a charlie foxtrot,and your exit will be slowed,my preference is to hand over a stage.

 

[karstdvr]

Why just go out of gas once? If you share stages you get to go OOA multiple times and it just makes the dive all around more interesting

If you ever try to rescue a paniced swimmer they will climb all over you,and almost drown you. Unfortunately I have had the experience of having a near paniced diver on the end of my long hose in a double valve roll off situation. I contend I would still rather hand off a stage to an OOA diver as opposed to being 7ft away,and hopefully in that 1000 psi of an AL 80 things will have gotten in control,and if that stage wasn't enough gas,then we can continue the exit on a long hose in a calm manner.

 

[karstdvr]

Now, things change in deep cave and when scootering. The best (and proven) solution is to dive stages only and save backgas as pure reserve. This works not only for sharing gas, but for delayed exits (poor vis, light failures, etc). If your buddy has a real bad situation and loses a lot of gas, the answer is to get them on the long hose (NOT stage) and tow out. Otherwise, they'll simply run out of gas again, which will put a temporary halt to the exit and they'll have to get on your longhose anyway.

I would be curious to see someone test the lenght of time it takes two divers in a tow configuration from the Heinkel to an exit point on a long hose,versus on stages without having to tow,and throwing in a stop to hand off another stage. Not just going 100' and saying we did this,and multiply the time by 31. These are hypothesis that need real testing,especially if your life depends on it. A number of years ago a discussion like this that ensued about exiting Cow in an air share situation. A lot of ideas occurred,but no real experience,so my buddy and I did an air share from Not My Fault to open water,and we learned a lot from that.

 

[LiteHedded]

Why?

I would much rather have paniced out of air diver on a stage they can control versus having them 7' away from me on a long hose. Now initially giving the long hose is needed for the emergency,but then my preference is to hand the person a stage (with 2/3rds left preferably) once "the dust settles". In OOA scooter scenarios,having to share air on exit can be a charlie foxtrot,and your exit will be slowed,my preference is to hand over a stage.

in my mind handing off stages is going to ensure a panicked diver has repeated out of gas emergencies. and I like having that reserve gas with me the entire dive. not just the first few minutes until we drop that stage bottle.
also, there's no rule saying that diver has to be 7 feet away from you. you want to get ahold of that diver right away and get him the gas and then keep him close.

in a scooter situation your exit is going to be slowed by towing but we allow enough gas and burn test our scooters to allow for this.

in reality the situation is going to dictate this. on a dive like this you would both have full untouched backgas (depending on the cave) so if this guy was efficient at all with his valve shutdowns you're not going to be towing. and if you do it wont be for long.

or course there are pros and cons to both. this is just the way that makes the most sense to me.

 

[LiteHedded]

If you ever try to rescue a paniced swimmer they will climb all over you,and almost drown you. Unfortunately I have had the experience of having a near paniced diver on the end of my long hose in a double valve roll off situation. I contend I would still rather hand off a stage to an OOA diver as opposed to being 7ft away,and hopefully in that 1000 psi of an AL 80 things will have gotten in control,and if that stage wasn't enough gas,then we can continue the exit on a long hose in a calm manner.

how did he roll off both of his valves? was it in a fit of furious helicopter turning?

 

[cmalinowski]

how did he roll off both of his valves? was it in a fit of furious helicopter turning?

Frog kick in. Back kick out

 

[ucfdiver]

I would be curious to see someone test the lenght of time it takes two divers in a tow configuration from the Heinkel to an exit point on a long hose,versus on stages without having to tow,and throwing in a stop to hand off another stage. Not just going 100' and saying we did this,and multiply the time by 31. These are hypothesis that need real testing,especially if your life depends on it. A number of years ago a discussion like this that ensued about exiting Cow in an air share situation. A lot of ideas occurred,but no real experience,so my buddy and I did an air share from Not My Fault to open water,and we learned a lot from that.

pfcaj and I tested towing each other out sharing gas from around p2400 in Ginnie with very little drop in speed. However, if the diver was panic and wasn't perfectly still when being towed, it wouldn't be very fun.

Personally I prefer scootering side by side with my buddy for most of Ginnie (especially when the walls have the black/white "ripples", 2x21w HID's really light that place up and it's my favorite area of mainline), so I think that I would tow temporarily and then swap to scootering side by side as soon as the cave allowed.

 

[LiteHedded]

pfcaj and I tested towing each other out sharing gas from around p2400 in Ginnie with very little drop in speed. However, if the diver was panic and wasn't perfectly still when being towed, it wouldn't be very fun.

Personally I prefer scootering side by side with my buddy for most of Ginnie (especially when the walls have the black/white "ripples", 2x21w HID's really light that place up and it's my favorite area of mainline), so I think that I would tow temporarily and then swap to scootering side by side as soon as the cave allowed.

whichever method you choose for stages, scootering side by side with a diver on a long hose is a bad idea

 

[rjack321]

whichever method you choose for stages, scootering side by side with a diver on a long hose is a bad idea

Sorry chief but side by side works great for air share towing, way better than towing from the crotch strap. The OOG diver still drives and pushes the donator along by their forearm with the long hose between the donator's forearm and the gas-less diver's hand.

You can even both drive and maintain max speed, just pitch back the donator a little (or even easier click down a notch on an X) so there's positive pressure from the OOG diver on the back of the donator's arm.

Side by side communication is vastly easier and you don't have as much risk of the OOG diver doing something foolish to you both while driving. Like blowing all your deco in an urge to surface.