Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[Kevrumbo]

No . . .RobertPhillips reasoning is sound & justified for the way he currently dives, and also because I have the same dive practices & rationale too.

Granted, I could buy a fancy-schmancy $1k Trimix Computer to run all my deep tech deco profiles --but I don't need to. I've got my planned & contingency profiles & tables memorized and written in my Wet Notes; and I know how to figure out "on-the-fly" profiles utilizing Ratio Deco or RGBM Algorithms. I'd much rather spend that $1k on a new HID Canister Light or Li-Ion Battery for my Scooter. . .

 

[SparticleBrane]

Finals, two retail christmas jobs and i didnt think i was going to be diving any time soon is why i didnt read the manual.

...and yet you still had plenty of time to play around on ScubaBoard.

 

[reefugee]

Lets be realistic - most people who dive are recreational dives who uses dive computers. They should be taught how to use a dive computer and not a dive table. Why not teach dive computers in OW courses and save the dive tables for AOW or later classes.

Don't get me wrong - I am glad that I had to learn the dive table. My 12 year old can do all the dive table exercises on the PADI tests without any problem. But I can guarantee she doesn't know exactly what it means except for the mechanic of the process. I think most people only know the mechanics of using a dive table but really don't fully comprehend what it means. Before my daughter's open water dive, I spent time with her going over her dive computers and explaining to her what everything meant. That was more important that learning the dive table. Granted, she's not doing anything beyond 60ft and all of her dives have been VERY easy dives.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Actually Mike, the gas time remaining will auto adjust for an increased respiration due to exertion, temperature, etc. IOW, it's taking in factors you may or may not recognize as mitigating.

For planning reserve gas an elevated sac needs to be considered before it happens. That "gas time remaining" just isn't a number that's ver important to gas management at all. Either I have hit my turn or ascent preaaure or I haven't.

If I do want an idea how much time I have left at depth before hitting a limiting pressure/volume, it's an easy enough calc to do myself. When a gas time remaining is of interest is before I get to that depth...as in when ascending or staging an ascent.

Like I've said, it's handy for a mental cross-check, but not something I generally follow to the letter, esp. because I have to mentally correct the number it shows to allow for the safety margins (2 divers, etc.) that it doesn't account for. It would be nifty if someone built a computer where you could program it to account for such things, however...

It would be easy enough to do but they would need to allow the input of more user data. The fact of the matter is though that the only thing the diver gets out of it is an alarm. By the time I would input enough into the computer I'd have my gas plan.

When it comes to decompression most of us aren't doing the actual calculations. We use tables, dive computers, palms, pc's or other methods. In all cases, the actual decompression model math is done by someone or something else. Not so with gas management.

My point here is simple, I can't see that an air integrated computer is doing anything at all that I need done. It's just a toy.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Unfortunately Bob,

Most instructors, with their "head in the sand" mentality refuse to teach proper computer use for various reasons. They focus on pounding home those stinking tables which are destined to be lost or filed away as "useless trivia" for the preponderance of divers. We need to be teaching them to use the tools that they will be diving with. It's obvious that they really WON'T dive with tables, so let's try something different.

If one learns to plan and manage a dive they'll be able to do it using any tools they choose.

Let's go back to the car analogy. You DON'T have to learn how to drive a stick shift in order to become a licensed operator. Does it help? I required that both of my kids master the vagaries of the standard transmission before they were allowed to go for their operator's license. The result? My daughter managed to flip my Nissan Truck going UNDER 30 mile an hour. In reality, that skill set that I held so dear did little to help her avoid this accident which resulted in permanent scarring for her and a broken foot for my son.

The funny thing? For the first time since I was 12, I don't own a vehicle with standard transmission. No, I don't really miss it either. Now if they would only calibrate that fuel tank in GALLONS rather than fractions.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that learning to drive a standard transmission caused your daughters accident?

My kids had to learn to drive a standard transmission because that's what I owned (and still own). If they wanted me to take them out driving in preperation for their exam they had to learn how. They drove automatics in school and standard with me. They didn't have a hard time learning and , thank God, niether has been in any kind of accident.

Something that interests and saddens me...I went to a large highschool in more or less urban high traffic area yet I don't recall a single student of that school ever getting killed in a car accident. Now we live in a rural area where it's all country driving and the local kids seem to be dropping like flies in car wrecks. Somebody is doing something very very wrong.

Computerized cars with front weel drive and antilock breaks don't seem to be making driving any safer. The ditches around here still fill up with cars every time it snows. It still seems to be the skill of the driver that makes the biggest difference.

By the same token, I haven't seen any evidence that dive computers have made diving any safer. On the contrary, with all the aged tourists using them to eek out more bottom time I really have to wonder. For all the computers out there you don't have to go any further than this board to see plenty of evidence of decompression sickness and OOA incidents. For all the pretty toys that divers buy, it still seems to be the skill of the diver that makes the difference.

 

[The Chairman]

If one learns to plan and manage a dive they'll be able to do it using any tools they choose.

It's best to teach HOW to use the tools. Ever seen a hammer used on a screw? Sure, it got the job "done", but that was not the most effective use of the hammer OR the screwdriver. Teach them to use the tools they are going to use.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that learning to drive a standard transmission caused your daughters accident?

I'm saying it's quite easy to get caught up in the PROCESS and substitute the process for the real learning. Learning tables does not make you a safer diver. Not one bit.

Computerized cars with front weel drive and antilock breaks don't seem to be making driving any safer. The ditches around here still fill up with cars every time it snows. It still seems to be the skill of the driver that makes the biggest difference.

Quite often its the ARROGANCE of the driver that causes the accident. They try to accomplish something that is physically impossible to do. Video games amplify this "take the risk" mentality. Unfortunately, real world rules are "for keeps".

By the same token, I haven't seen any evidence that dive computers have made diving any safer.

Or less safe. You have many, many computer users diving "blind" because they refuse to learn how to dive using a computer. Don't blame the computer if the divers in question only know how to operate the computer. I wonder how many coming in through the chambers only have a vague idea how deep they were? They weren't using tables OR computers.

How many times have you heard the incessant beep of someone's computer? Why? 10 to 1 it's NOT a computer malfunction. When these divers, devoid of skills on diving with a computer get bent, those who are in love with tables snicker and say "I told you so!"

 

[The Chairman]

My point was that a computer/bottom timer, etc... should not be considered a primary piece of gear. It is a backup for your brain. If you are teaching that a computer is an essential piece of gear, what are you teaching them to use as a backup? Obviously not tables...

Their backup is called their buddy. Peice of gear craps out, you end the dive.

If my bottom timer were to die during a dive, I should have a very close approximation to my depth and time as I check every five minutes. If, during the period between the last time I checked andthe point were I find it has failed, I know that five minutes ago I was at x depth at y time. Why would I need to thumb the dive? If I called a turn around at this point and headed back to the entry, I have a damn good idea of how long it will take and what my average depth would be, as I had been keeping track of it for the first half of the dive

So you continue the dive if your depth guage pukes? Interesting. You are either a brave or foolish man.

Do people stop using tables because they bought a computer and now believe they have no use for them, or did they stop using tables because they found they did not need them because they are useless?

They stopped using the tables because they plain don't like them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

How many times have you heard the incessant beep of someone's computer? Why? 10 to 1 it's NOT a computer malfunction. When these divers, devoid of skills on diving with a computer get bent, those who are in love with tables snicker and say "I told you so!"

Exactly. Which is why I say that it's the skill of the diver thats important.

 

[GDI]

Ok without going back over ALL the threads of this forum ....

PADI doesn't care if you use the eRDP or the RDP or the RDP with computer. The start of this thread is IMO a company policy only Sport Chalet

Yes SDI has a on-line program, they teach use of computers and the understanding of tables. WHY? So that the divers can better understand the computer.

Computers are nothing more then tables; in fact they are adjusting moving tables 'real time information. If tables were not generated then the algorithm for the computer would not exist. Ergo To better understand the computer you need to have a knowledge of tables

What students need to know is
1. How to understand what their computer is telling them and how to safely follow the damn thing
2. That the Computer is really a "real time" feed back dive table
3. That if they compare the computer to a table lets say at a depth of 60 feet then the computer would also still only allow 55 minutes (less the time of descent to 60 feet)
4. (The Kicker) That computers can fail and that they should be used with and in support of a table
5. No body can predict who will and who will not get bent from using whatever device or method.
A good user of tables can use then just as fast if not faster then a person punching up the information on a computer or the eRDP

More later my wife is rushing me out the door...

 

[amascuba]

I have no strong opinion concerning the use of tables vs. computers, but I think your reasoning, or justification is weak.

So your justification is to just turn the brain off and put your life into the hands of a small electronic device on your wrist?