Spiegel Grove??

[MikeFerrara]

the list of positive advice goes on. positive attitudes are what will help the dive industry grow and a part of this thread has certainly not helped that. Any new divers or potential divers reading this may just decide they don't want to dive after all.

Why is it so important to grow the dive industry? I don't know that I want to scare any one away but folks should sure realize there's more to diving that the "fun, safe and easy for the whole family, less dangerous than bowling" pass time the agencies would have them believe it is.

IMO, having a positive effect/contribution on/to the sport of diving or the dive community is not the same as growing the dive industry. "idustry" is business where sales is money and that's the objective. What's in the best interest of divers may in fact be exactly oposite to what's good for the "industry".

 

[drew52]

### sorry i don't want to start another heated debate ###


i do believe good positive attitudes cannot harm us and believe this forum should be a place that encourages people and offers them good solid advice with out trying to prove each other wrong or turning people away from what can be anb awesome sport.

dive industry, dive community, sport of diviing = the same thing

 

[MikeFerrara]

dive industry, dive community, sport of diviing = the same thing

I strongly disagree. The diving community is the set of people who dive. The industry is a set of businesses who market to them. Some people are members of both groups but they aren't the same. I drive a car but I am not one with General Motors or the oil companies and what's good for them is not always good for me.

I don't point this out to argue something petty although at first glance it might seem that way. I don't feel that supporting the many industry practices that I disagree with (or those who participate in them) is the best way to help my own diving or some one elses. I feel better giving folks a bit of a heads up about some of the bunk they're being sold. As a diver, the dive "industry" is not always your friend.

Realative to this thread, there are agency training standards that will permit a diver on their 5th lifetime dive to dive to 100 ft with an instructor who may never have been there before either...ie some standards will permit one to get AOW with one dive past 60 ft and with that you can enter, DM training and go on to become an instructor (with one dive past 60 ft). Beyond that there are training standards that NEVER require the very skills that are the most important on any dive let alone the deepish ones. They not only permit but incourage and market going deep without the skills to do a good job shallow. From my experience with trainaing standards, my opinion is that they were written by non-diving idiots who's primary interest is in sales and making it easier for their primary customer (the dive shop) to make sales. The result is not always in the best interest of the diver.

Diving can be a great sport but going too far too fast without the requisite skills (or what should be considered requisite skills) is no way to have fun diving. Just ask the poster who started the thread. yet...there are about a billion dive shops and instructors who would have raced to get in line to take him on that very dive...all working well within the standards of their respective agencies.

Edit: The agency, shop and instructor who sold the class, planned and scheduled the dive is the dive industry. The thread starter is the dive community. The poster has gotten some good advice here from the community. It's too bad the industry didn't give the diver (or even follow) some of that same advice.

 

[drew52]

perhaps i have been incorrect? however without this terrible industry what gear would you dive with, where would you go diving and who would take you out on those island dive holidays so you could enjoy those untouched reefs. yes as much as you may not be part of any agency or belong to any scuba manufacturer you are still in need of this industry. no industry no sport of diving no dive community.

Anyway as per my earlier posts I still don't think there is any thing wrong with good solid advice and encouragement to people who are seeking help. the agencies have there good and bad points but this is not really about them is it. this thread is about someone asking for help. not the finer points as to why the agencies and the dive industry suck!

 

[LJinFLA]

I don't see the point in chasing around the facts in a negative way it does not really matter what really happened and casemanager has not mentioned the instructor or the people he was diving with so instead of trying to prove casemanager was in the wrong and not the instructor how about some encouragement. A gentle reminder that one should not blame others for ones mistakes would have been ok.

First, what do mean it doesn't really matter what really happened to casemanager? Isn't that the point of coming to this forum seek advice? How does anyone give advice without knowing what really happened? It sounds a little irresponsible to me, coming from an instructor to say that the facts don't matter, that all that is needed here is a little gentle encouragment. He came here looking for an evaluation of the situation and that is what he is getting. It is not about blame it is about understanding what is within his control and what is not and what can be done about those things. It is about understnad ALL of the circumstances, before during and after, that contributed to this and how to get around them. It is not blame it is honesty and understanding.

And what thread have you been reading anyway? I suggest you go back and read more carefully. Casemanager has mentioned the instructor and his buddy and the DM on the trip with negative implications.

Rather encourage people with a positive attitude; it's a sad day when people feel chased away from diving due to people passing blame around. The diving community needs people with good attitudes that encourage people to enjoy diving and want to learn and experience the joys of diving.

What? don't you think that there are some people that just should not be diving? What if he is one of them?

We could have all kept our opinions on the persons mental state, drugs he was taking etc to ourselves and perhaps offered encouragement and good solid advice on what to do. As stated in threads casemanager has not divulged his medical history but he has said he does not suffer from panic attacks and had been chewing gum and was using a patch.

Are you suggesting the a person's mental state and control, and the medications he was taking should not be a a part of good and responsible advice? What about other conditions that could have contributed? Do these not matter to to good and responsible advice? You seem to be suggesting that the only person's word that should be considered here about what happened that day is casemanager's. Should we ignore other facts from peole that were there as well?

Here is some solid advice that could have been given; we could also have added our own positive words of encouragement.

(1) Seek medical advice on what to do; we do not know what the person operating the chamber has said or why this person suggested not diving again.

Yes we do

(3) One symptom of Narcosis can be anxiety; this has happened to many people on occasion. Remember going up a little can ease these feelings

Why did going up a little not help in this case? Why, per casemanagers own words, did he say that at twenty feet, and on the boat ride to port, he was still panicing about staying at depth. Why does he still FEAR water to the point of being uncomfotable taking a shower? Might this suggest other issues?

(8) check on the meds you are taking before diving, never presume anything is ok. even the gum and patch could have adverse effects. (if you read casemanagers comments these are the only drugs taken)

Clearly my facts as I relayed them do not figure into your thinking here. I was there. The instructor was there. others were there and heard casemanager say the facts about the other drugs. Let's just ignore that shall we?:11:

the list of positive advice goes on. positive attitudes are what will help the dive industry grow and a part of this thread has certainly not helped that. Any new divers or potential divers reading this may just decide they don't want to dive after all.

Yes, let's just all stay positive and give nice positive thoughts to every other diver. That will solve everything, answer all issues and questions, and the world wil be a more beautiful place.

You know, I have not been emotional through this entire thread but this one really amazes me. I am starting to understand more about what others are saying about how these agencies certify instructors.:05:

 

[drew52]

yeah i wonder what idiot certified me as an instructor.

anyway i've said enough you can continue with the blame game and continue to complain about anyone who says anything that might actually help this guy.

i'm off to neverneverland where everything is beautiful and rosy

 

[TheScubaGirl]

Clearly my facts as I relayed them do not figure into your thinking here. I was there. The instructor was there. others were there and heard casemanager say the facts about the other drugs. Let's just ignore that shall we?:11:

Yes, let's just all stay positive and give nice positive thoughts to every other diver. That will solve everything, answer all issues and questions, and the world wil be a more beautiful place.

You know, I have not been emotional through this entire thread but this one really amazes me. I am starting to understand more about what others are saying about how these agencies certify instructors.:05:

Holy cow, LJ, will you stop with the insults and attacks already. Everyone knows by now you were there and claim to have all the facts, but unfortunately your facts are overheard facts and differ from what Casemanager says. So who do we believe? Thats a tough one. Either version could be correct. So thats why all advice will differ according to how much of the so called facts are taken into account by the advisor giving the advice. No need to give direct insults, based on advice given, which is based on incomplete facts anyway.

 

[drew52]

And what thread have you been reading anyway? I suggest you go back and read more carefully. Casemanager has mentioned the instructor and his buddy and the DM on the trip with negative implications.

ok so now i've read all of casemanagers comments again. should i put each one in a quote? i can if you like. I still do not see where he mentions the name of the dive center, dive boat or instructor. perhaps pm me the pages where he does this. he does however mention the dive site.

Are you suggesting the a person's mental state and control, and the medications he was taking should not be a a part of good and responsible advice?

NO NOT SUGGESTING ANYTHING OF THE SORT. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD READ MY LIST OF SUGGESTIONS.

You know, I have not been emotional through this entire thread

perhaps you should take some of your own advice and re-read this thread.

 

[LJinFLA]

Wow, Both from Cape Town. Do you two know each other?

I truely am sorry if you guys think that I am being overly harsh or passing blame. I have truely been totaly unemotional about this issue throughout this entire thread in my heart and mind and sincerely want to see casemanager learn from this. You would probably only know that if you were sitting here with me as I have been contributing all of this. Part of me wishes I was the type to share with all of you what I know about this situation and tell what casemanager won't discuss. Suffice it to say that without that, much of the advice being put forth here is unlikely to be of any real help to him.

I appologoze for the jab toward Drew's training. It just seems that he is trying to gloss this over purposfully ignoring some facts. Everyone really is just shooting in the dark without casemanager being open about it all.

I also never said that he mentioned names. He seems to be concentrating on their responsibility, and culpability in this event and not that portion of it that may lay within him and that he can actually do something about.

I think there has been a wealth of information given here to him already. You guys look at that as blame and seek to gloss this over. I think I and many others here look at that as help, advice, sharing of experiences, and expertise (where that term applies) and trying to get him to make his own fully honest appraisal of himself and the events. I think glossing this over and ignoring certain facts may just put him at risk and others. As responsible divers we should not strive to give positive advice about returning to the water (against one hyperbaric trained doctor's advice) without the facts and without knowing whether such advice is the right advice.

LJ

 

[LJinFLA]

You know, This is getting so repetitive. I know what I know to be true. Casemanager is clearly not going to discuss the things that I and others have repeatedly implored him to. Without that, we can only deal with the few scaps of infomation and side issues that he and I have given here. Any well intentioned advice that is given will likely be at best incomplete and worst just plain wrong. There has been a great deal of advice given here that really should help casemanager but it appears that he will not listen to anything other than what he really wanted to hear here anyway. A bit of a self fulfilling prophecy really. He only admits that he had some responsibility in the rapid ascent, but does not want to discuss anything else about the incident or what led up to it. Everything reamins the fault of his buddy selection, the instructor, the DM, me, etc. Unfortunatley in this case it may have very serious results.

With that said, I leave it to my fellow SB contributors. I don't feel there is anything more I can contribute or feel I should contribute to this thread. Since it is not my health or life we are dealing with here, I really don't need to pursue this any further. IF my fellow contributirs feel that my input here has been valuable, let me know. Otherwise I will only contribute again if asked to, regardless of how far off track this gets or what ilinformed advice is given. I would apreciate hearing from you either here or in PMs.

Thanks,

LJ