Spiegel Grove??

[casemanager]

If there is one key thing in this experience it is that you now know what panic feels like underwater: that tunnelling of vision, the difficulty in getting a decent breath, etc. I rate that moment – the first feeling of panic or near panic in the water, as a key moment of learning in all divers: you have to experience it in order to learn how to overcome your ‘fight or flight’ reflex in difficult situations. You have also learnt that it is usually several smaller factors snowballing into one bigger problem that lead to that point. Most divers on this thread will have experienced a similar moment, and become better divers for it.

Now look back at your experience and I wish to ask you a key question: would you react differently if presented with that experience again? You will now hopefully have learnt that when there is a problem that you should stop, take a deep breath, and think: is your air on? Yep. Is your buddy close? Yep. Ok - what exactly is the problems? How do I fix it?




Thats exactly the sort of person you have to become to continue as a diver. Relaxing and dealing with problems by yourself underwater is something people learn through exactly the experiences you have encountered.




In all difficult situations encountered in diving you have to rely on yourself. Maybe bolting up felt natural thing to do then, but I truly hope you have overcome this urge and no longer consider it the natural thing to do now: you have to rely on yourself on every dive you do.

Cheers,
Rohan.

thanks, i know now what panic is and that in the future how to deal with it, the best example of have been giving is not to bolt to the surace but to sim upward. Meditate & relax

 

[casemanager]

wayne,

The euphoria feeling came on first, this was somethin i never had experienced before. I remember asking myself if I was narced but the feeling was not enjoyable, it was scary. Then the vertigo kicked in, I felt like I was spinning. I tried to calm myself down but I couldnt. I tried to get help but I just remember panicing. As I rose, the vertigo and panic was still there, I knew I had to stop and did at 20' but the craziness was still there and I needed to just surface.

The predive was all done by the boat captain. The instructor just told us to stay within 100'. I felt ok with the predive info. I guess looking back at it, the buddy I picked was not the best thing because he was saying the opposite of everything the boat captain said. Example, he was going to penetrate and go below 100'. I felt I should of changed buddies but I didnt, hindsight, I should of.

 

[casemanager]

nicotine or medcation did not cause my accident, this wasnt the 1st time i had chewed nic gum or taken a medication, This was the first time diving with motion sickness patch and using nitrox at a deep dive??????

 

[drew52]

First off lets say if your medically fit to dive then dive. As with ScubaGirls comments I would also tell my buddy what happened so the buddy can decide whether to dive with me or not. Perhaps find someone like a DM that you can trust and rely for a while to help you gain the experience you need, also try to dive a bit more often and if you can't do that then at least get several dives in and a refresher course before trying to push your limits. And remember with Narcosis going up a little can help, shooting to the surface will not. Also try get your breathing under control, slow deep breathes help the panic, concentrate on the breathing rather than anything else.

There has been a whole lot of blame thrown around in this thread and I feel its fairly pathetic especially from those people that are more qualified. You can expect this from a new diver or an inexperienced diver who has had an accident but I would not expect it from people with experience and knowledge of diving. Why throw blame at an inexperienced diver who just wants to learn more even if they are trying to place the blame on others.

If I had listened to some of your guys advice I would not be diving today, yes I once had a panic attack at 27m in 9degree centigrade water with about 3meters of viz. It was my 7th dive and I was an Open Water student not listening to my Instructor by going deep. Lucky for me I had the presence of mind to not rush to the surface as I remembered my training having just completed my open water course. Today I am an instructor and have done a further 230 plus dives with no further panic attacks diving in worse conditions from time to time.

I don't really believe that one panic attack, even with serious consequences is a reason to give up diving. Perhaps gain some experience on the shallower stuff and as your confidence builds slowly extend your limits with a good friend/buddy or DM/Instructor you are comfortable with.

Casemanager has stated that he does not have a history of Panic Attacks and was not on any drugs for this so why keep stating this.

My final bit; go see a doctor get signed off as being fit to dive and hit the shallows, gain some experience, remember your training and hit the challenges with an experienced DM or Instructor you have come to trust.

Good Luck and enjoy any future diving; remember this forum contains just a few people in the dive industry and there are many great people out there as well as some not so great ones. choose yours buddies wisely and don't dive if you are uncomfortable its your decision after all.

 

[2Tours N Iraq`]

Answering the question as to why I dive (and I believe why other divers do it) is because I think we share one common trait: we are pioneers / adventure-seekers. We are not comfortable with the "same-ole same-ole." We enjoy new challenges and would rather learn things first-hand than be told about something. We explore, we challenge, we push the envelope just a little more...why? Simply because we can and we have the internal drive to do so. It is something programmed into to each and every one of us. Look at how we identify ourselves on this board: we are all scuba divers who (most of us anyway) have occupations outside of scuba diving. We don't identify ourselves as market analysts, lawyers, soldiers, etc.; we identify ourselves as divers because that is what we are.

 

[LJinFLA]

OK in my continuing efforts to keep the facts straight here and not place blame:

There has been a whole lot of blame thrown around in this thread and I feel its fairly pathetic especially from those people that are more qualified. You can expect this from a new diver or an inexperienced diver who has had an accident but I would not expect it from people with experience and knowledge of diving. Why throw blame at an inexperienced diver who just wants to learn more even if they are trying to place the blame on others.

There hasn't been blame. Did the ER doc that treated him "cast blame"? Or did he give educated advice about the situation and an informed opinion about what he should do, (not dive again).

Casemanager has stated that he does not have a history of Panic Attacks and was not on any drugs for this so why keep stating this.

Incorrect. HE has stated that he does not have a history of panic attacks. He has not stated that he was not on any other drugs for the dive. He did state to emergency personnel that he was on others at the time. Let's not also forget that it should not just be about the meds themselves and what effects they might cause at depth. A question that no one asks here is what are the conditions that those meds were meant to treat. We do not know his medical history here in the forum because he will not share it. That is his right.

By the way, I am not stating that he should share his medical things here. I am just trying to encourage him to not look everywhere else for reasons and in his own mind give those things some weight. If he chooses not to share the history, then he needs to filter the advice he gets here with the fact that the people giving the advice do not know the whole story here. IF he is able to do that correctly then he may get some benefit from everyone's hard work to help him here. Otherwise...?

LJ

 

[MikeFerrara]

I trie to skim the whole thread but started to go cross eyed about page 20.

This sort of incident happens often in AOW courses. Mostly near misses but a few injuries too. Dispite the entry requirements or the performance requiremnts of the course, it will always be the instructor on the hook. the agency will keep the line in the standards that says the instructor is responsible forpre-assessing skills and applying judgement on the actual dives. Instructors should wake up and require more from the agencies that they pay anual membership fees to. They are customers NOT employees. They should start acting like it and being treated like it.

Dispnea, due to CO2 build up is what I suspect is behing lots of these AOW training incidents. Poor buoyancy control contributing to incorrect breathing and ending in a feeling of breathlessness...and sometimes panic. I've seen it lots of times even in my own students. In the end my reposnce was to require a far higher level of skill beforeI'd take a student deep (or even into OW at all). Yet the skills that can help prevent this (buoyancy control, trim, finning techniques ect) have very lax or nonexistant requirements in OW, AOW, DM training and even instructor training and testing. Imagine, an entire dive industry that hasn't been told.

Either way, it seems like you'd expect these sorts of things to happen when divers are taken deep before they're any good shallow. True, any one can panic but as skill improves and confidence increased the point of panic for the individual is moved way out from where it was prior to that skill development. Panic is a responce to a situation that one doesn not believe that they can control. Control iliminates the panic.

Some one said the swimming requirement was reduced to lik 15 foreward strokes? That's one way to respond to all the people we used to get comming into the shop to learn diving who couldn't swim. It is a shame to have to turn away that cash. LOL Still, I'll bet the standards still contain the requirement for the instructor to insure that the student is comfortable in the water. See? It'll be the instructors fault. How could some one who can't swim even be comfortable NEAR the water...forget about in it.

People are responsible for themselves butr the agencies do work real hard to convince every one that diving is fun and safe for the whole family...even for 10 year olds! Seems like we should let the cigarette companies off th e hook too.

As a former instructor who attempted to call both agencies I tought through onto the carpet over this stuff and got no place, I've pretty much decided they can all kiss my ***. What the hell...as Ted would say..."wackem, packem, and stackem". If I ever teach again it'll be under my own agency because, as far as I'm concerned there isn't one out there worth the time it took me to type this post. The instructors? Well they were trained by the same agency and until they learn the hard way they don't have any reason to question their own training. Thery're just doing what they were taught.

 

[drew52]

bottom line lets not pass blame around either to the instructor/s or the divers each person is responsible for him/herself and has been trained and has the opportunity to call the dive at anytime.

I don't need to start quoting from your threads; those of you have have passed blame know who you are. I don't see the point in chasing around the facts in a negative way it does not really matter what really happened and casemanager has not mentioned the instructor or the people he was diving with so instead of trying to prove casemanager was in the wrong and not the instructor how about some encouragement. A gentle reminder that one should not blame others for ones mistakes would have been ok.

Rather encourage people with a positive attitude; it's a sad day when people feel chased away from diving due to people passing blame around. The diving community needs people with good attitudes that encourage people to enjoy diving and want to learn and experience the joys of diving.

I think we should go back to the beginning where someone has asked for help; possibly in the wrong way by attempting blame on others. And no the ER Doc did not pass blame but some of us in this forum have certainly done that.

We could have all kept our opinions on the persons mental state, drugs he was taking etc to ourselves and perhaps offered encouragement and good solid advice on what to do. As stated in threads casemanager has not divulged his medical history but he has said he does not suffer from panic attacks and had been chewing gum and was using a patch.

Here is some solid advice that could have been given; we could also have added our own positive words of encouragement.

(1) Seek medical advice on what to do; we do not know what the person operating the chamber has said or why this person suggested not diving again.

(2) If a proper dive medical has cleared you for diving then persue diving.

(3) One symptom of Narcosis can be anxiety; this has happened to many people on occasion. Remember going up a little can ease these feelings

(4) calm deep breathes and concentrating on breathing can help the anxiety.

(5) make buddy contact, just knowing someone is paying attention to you is a great help

(6) gain more experience in shallow water/easy diving and then venture into more challenging dives

(7) dive with a buddy/dm/instructor you trust and have confidence in

(8) check on the meds you are taking before diving, never presume anything is ok. even the gum and patch could have adverse effects. (if you read casemanagers comments these are the only drugs taken)

the list of positive advice goes on. positive attitudes are what will help the dive industry grow and a part of this thread has certainly not helped that. Any new divers or potential divers reading this may just decide they don't want to dive after all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

wayne,

The euphoria feeling came on first, this was somethin i never had experienced before. I remember asking myself if I was narced but the feeling was not enjoyable, it was scary. Then the vertigo kicked in, I felt like I was spinning. I tried to calm myself down but I couldnt. I tried to get help but I just remember panicing. As I rose, the vertigo and panic was still there, I knew I had to stop and did at 20' but the craziness was still there and I needed to just surface.

Were does every one get the idea that carcosis is pleasant. The head rush you get from a few fingers of brandy after dinner in the comfort and safety of your living room may be pleasant for some. In my early technical training (before I knew better) we did 170 ft on air. It was just part of the class. Our instructor didn't feel good that day so we went without him while he sat on deck. LOL Anyway I've never experienced a pleasant bout of narcosis. What's pleasant about being deep knowing that you may not be in control or fully aware of what's going on? Narcosis is something to avoid...not something to practice. The good news is they have found a cure (helium). The old "get experience being narced and learn to cope" is just more agency propogandy as far as I'm concerned. The best way is to get the skills (shallow, get the right equipment and gas and then dive deep. It makes it all so much more fun. Of course you don't get to see all the neat flashing lights and hear the cool sirens as often that way.

The interesting thing is that things like Co2 buildup just increase the effects of narcosis so when a student lacking in basic skills goes deep it's all that much worse than it would be for a diver with better technique who is more relaxed and breathing correctly.

If I ever have the time, I think I'll compile all the incidents like this I've seen and read about and put them into a book which I will title "***I, the way the world learns to
di(v)e".

 

[MikeFerrara]

duplicate sorry.