Spiegel Grove??

[drew52]

And what thread have you been reading anyway? I suggest you go back and read more carefully. Casemanager has mentioned the instructor and his buddy and the DM on the trip with negative implications.

sorry if i took this to imply names

look i'm not glossing over anything. read advice.
no. 1 in the list. seek medical advice. go have a dive medical
2. if given the ok to dive then ...

at this point a list of stuff follows that can be helpfull to any diver aND especially in casemanagers case.

(1) Seek medical advice on what to do; we do not know what the person operating the chamber has said or why this person suggested not diving again.

(2) If a proper dive medical has cleared you for diving then persue diving.

(3) One symptom of Narcosis can be anxiety; this has happened to many people on occasion. Remember going up a little can ease these feelings

(4) calm deep breathes and concentrating on breathing can help the anxiety.

(5) make buddy contact, just knowing someone is paying attention to you is a great help

(6) gain more experience in shallow water/easy diving and then venture into more challenging dives

(7) dive with a buddy/dm/instructor you trust and have confidence in

(8) check on the meds you are taking before diving, never presume anything is ok.

 

[gangrel441]

Been following along here for a while, but have decided not to offer my insights until now.

LJ, unfortunately, the meds that you mention casemanager taking, while compelling, are not facts. You overhearing that in a conversation between casemanager and the paramedics is hearsay. Us hearing about that from you is second generation hearsay. Note, this is not a statement that casemanager is or is not on those meds, but we can't accept that as fact. The same can be said of the mention of panic disorders.

Now, more on topic. casemanager needs to understand that 25 dives over 6 years is miniscule in terms of experience. At this point in my diving experience, for example, my record is 24 dives in a week. I am sure there are many posting in this forum who can top that easily.

Also, it is important to note that casemanager refers to the Divemaster/Instructor. Isn't one important question here, which is it? DM and Instructor are not one in the same or interchangable. This isn't real important to the story, but it is important to gaining insight into casemanager's understanding of diving.

Now, considering that casemanager was doing AOW, I would say it is safe to assume the leader in question was an instructor, since I don't believe a DM is qualified to run AOW courses.

Here is a big semantics point. casemanager refers to this dive as one of his AOW "checkout dives". This is a term I hear used to refer to the open water dives in an OW cert class. Lots of instructor hand-holding, drilling diving skills, teaching how to work in buddy teams, etc. I don't think the term "checkout dives" relates well to AOW dives. Furthermore, I do get the impression that this isn't just semantics. It seems to me that casemanager was under the impression that he would go on this dive, babysat by the instructor, get graded on his performance, and get his card. Whether any of you agree on the validity of the AOW cert, I think we can all agree that more independance is required on these training dives than on "checkout dives."

LJ, the one part of what you have posted that I am willing to accept at face value, since I see it time and time again, is that several of the diving professionals on board for this dive were vacationing, and not there as working professionals. It does seem to me that casemanager looked around and saw a divemaster here, and instructor there, and figured there were 4-5 instructors in the water to help out on his "checkout dives." In actuality, there was probably one instructor, with him and one or a few other students.

casemanager, if you do dive again, I strongly recommend you reassess your understanding of self-reliance, and comprehend that not every instructor that happens to be in the same water with you is not personally responsible for seeing to it that you don't go on a polaris ascent from 90'. Those instructors have no responsibility to endanger their own lives to save yours. They should not (though some will) risk becomming a second victim. If they did, they would do you more harm than good by dividing the resources of the rest of your rescuers.

Think that's all I had on my mind here...

 

[LJinFLA]

LJ, unfortunately, the meds that you mention casemanager taking, while compelling, are not facts. You overhearing that in a conversation between casemanager and the paramedics is hearsay. Us hearing about that from you is second generation hearsay. Note, this is not a statement that casemanager is or is not on those meds, but we can't accept that as fact. The same can be said of the mention of panic disorders.

OK just one last thought....LOL

It really isn't hearsay when it was directly heard from the person and witnessed by the instructor, other divers, the paramedics, the sheriff, and documented in the medical record, police record and I am certain other places.

LJ

good luck guys and casemanager...

 

[gangrel441]

OK just one last thought....LOL

It really isn't hearsay when it was directly heard from the person and witnessed by the instructor, other divers, the paramedics, the sheriff, and documented in the medical record, police record and I am certain other places.

LJ

good luck guys and casemanager...

Stop me if I am wrong here, but what you said above is the very definition of hearsay. I would change one word to make it more clear...overheard from the person and witnessed by the instructor...

Unless casemanager was speaking to you when he said it or you have a copy of the medical record or police report where this is documented, it is hearsay.

This does not change my points about assigning responsibility to off-duty vacationing dive professionals, the expectation of being babysat on a dive, or the difference between a "checkout" dive and a training dive. Semantics can lead to some needless arguments sometimes, but they are vital to pay attention when there is a good chance that the disagreement goes well beyond the semantics.

 

[scubapolly]

Answering the question as to why I dive (and I believe why other divers do it) is because I think we share one common trait: we are pioneers / adventure-seekers. We are not comfortable with the "same-ole same-ole." We enjoy new challenges and would rather learn things first-hand than be told about something. We explore, we challenge, we push the envelope just a little more...why? Simply because we can and we have the internal drive to do so. It is something programmed into to each and every one of us. Look at how we identify ourselves on this board: we are all scuba divers who (most of us anyway) have occupations outside of scuba diving. We don't identify ourselves as market analysts, lawyers, soldiers, etc.; we identify ourselves as divers because that is what we are.

I totally agree . Not to mention there are some pretty cool critters rofile: :bfish: :fish: :azvatar: :goldfish: ctopus: down there!

 

[Ayisha]

the agencies have there good and bad points but this is not really about them is it.

I agree with Mike Ferrerra, Steve R., and Wayne here. This incident and many others COULD BE related to the dive agencies. Are o/w divers or even "Advanced" divers taught to really be "self-sufficient"? Or is there an acceptance of "hand-holding" long after even a so-called "Advanced" certification? Are they thrown into situations in their Advanced training (like Casemanager was) that they haven't developed and honed the pre-requisites for?

Most people probably get through without being hurt this way. But for those that aren't "getting it" or whose skills have not been pre-assessed before doing a challenging type of dive, how does an instructor deal with it (if they even perceive that there is a problem)? How are these students supposed to feel comfortable and confident in situations they haven't worked up to?

There are many factors in this incident, and training, experience, as well as prerequisite training/experience are certainly some of them.

 

[Scuba]

I think this has been quite a thorough discussion dealing with many issues at play here. Better than most, with good contributions coming from all sides. I'll add some additional perspective on a few issues.

Panic disorder is a contra-indication to diving. This is a condition were panic occurs without there being a real reason to panic. Something for everyone to consider in their own diving. The only reason for panic in this case was diving significantly beyond one’s comfort zone without an adequate plan to deal with it or inability to implement. I don't believe this was a situation were a shocking event occurred causing panic, it was a situation were cumulative factors led to an additional shock causing factor, which in and of itself should not have caused panic shock. Even if we consider the affects of medication, narcosis, dizziness, and other stressors at work here, had this occurred to a competent diver well within his comfort zone - the rising anxiety level and causal factors would likely have been noticed and acknowledged, with the result being measures taken under control to stop further worsening, along with the initiation of stress reduction actions, while still possible. This did not occur here. Not fool proof by any means. It’s about placing one'self were the odds of success are on ones side in regards to events that one can reasonably expect to possibly occur - or not.

Stretching unknown limits were different factors accumulate raising the anxiety level, without taking action to stop and reduce while still possible, places one at the mercy were any other stressor will cause a panic reaction.

This is something within everyone’s control. One of the cardinal rules of diving is:

A diver may call a dive at any time for whatever reason.

Stop thinking in terms of limits, NDL limits, Certification limits, and so forth. Place the emphases on COMFORT ZONE based on knowledge and experience. Constantly self evaluate all dive circumstances, environment, gear, gas, buddy, self, etc. In time this becomes effortless and almost a subconscious awareness were complacency then becomes a major issue.

By thinking in terms of comfort level, one is more likely to notice and pay attention to minor issues that start causing concern and raising anxiety. Also more likely to notice accumulating factors encountered and higher significance one’s. If the mindset is one of limits, it is easier to be lulled into going to the limit under the false pretense of safety within those limits. Limits serve to quantify, thus simplify things with numerical accuracy. But dive limits are in constant flux from dive to dive, thus they are of limited use and one must be careful to not misapply. As with all “tools”, using comfort zone as an aid has the negative risk of potentially leading one beyond one’s tested competency level under the false guise of feeling or assessing a comfortable state of being. Know your tools, their intended use, and their limitation.

Plan the dive before the dive. Evaluate circumstances likely to be encountered and develop a plan to deal with them. There’s no substitute for having a planned response to a situation and the practice to properly implement it, in order to minimize danger and keep the situation under control. Stretching one's comfort zone through the learning process is not a reason to not have a plan to adequately deal with situations. It makes it more difficult but fully manageable if properly done.

Talking about managing panic is like talking about curing a decease that could have been prevented. Prevention is the key to safe diving.

Another major issue at work here has to do with being self sufficient. This is not emphasized or adequately trained for in recreational diving. Just remember, we always remain a part of the team, susceptible to seperating into individual parts, thus having to deal with a situation on our own. A diver should always be prepared for this eventuality no matter who, or how many, he dives with.

OK, I think I’m done now.

 

[waynne fowler]

wayne,

The euphoria feeling came on first, this was somethin i never had experienced before. I remember asking myself if I was narced but the feeling was not enjoyable, it was scary. Then the vertigo kicked in, I felt like I was spinning. I tried to calm myself down but I couldnt. I tried to get help but I just remember panicing. As I rose, the vertigo and panic was still there, I knew I had to stop and did at 20' but the craziness was still there and I needed to just surface.

The predive was all done by the boat captain. The instructor just told us to stay within 100'. I felt ok with the predive info. I guess looking back at it, the buddy I picked was not the best thing because he was saying the opposite of everything the boat captain said. Example, he was going to penetrate and go below 100'. I felt I should of changed buddies but I didnt, hindsight, I should of.

nicotine or medcation did not cause my accident, this wasnt the 1st time i had chewed nic gum or taken a medication, This was the first time diving with motion sickness patch and using nitrox at a deep dive??????

Euphoria = a feeling of great joy or happiness.

By your discription you did not feel this. However that is irrelevent.
You said that you felt vertigo. Did any of the doctors give you any clue medically why you may have experienced vertigo.
Here are some possible reasons divers may experience vertigo. This is not exhaustive.

Transient Vertigo Resulting from Unequal Middle Ear Pressure Equilibration (Alternobaric Vertigo)
This is dizziness resulting from unequal pressures. It is due to unequal increase in middle ear pressures on ascent.
Transient Vertigo Resulting from Caloric Stimulation
A similar vertigo can also occur as a result of unequal caloric stimulation of one labyrinth over the other due to diving in a prone position in cold water--the undermost ear being stimulated.
Transient Dizziness Resulting from HPNS High Pressure Nervous Syndrome
This is typically associated with mixed gas (read trimix) diving in excess of 300'
Alternobaric Facial Paralysis
The facial nerve traverses a canal very close to the middle ear. Middle ear over-pressure can cause damage to this nerve resulting in a one-sided facial paralysis. It is often associated with alternobaric vertigo. The paralysis is temporary.

In short Alternobaric Vertigo is probably the most common form experience by divers. One fairly reliable indication of this may be a noticable temporary paralysis (numbness) on one side of the face.

There are some very good reads at verious places on the web that pertain to vertigo and diving. If you did not equalize properly on the decent or had a forceful equalization you could have cause some barotrauma resulting in vertigo.

Moving to the issue of narcosis. Narcosis WILL disappear once the partial pressure of nitrogen gets below a spacific threshold. That threshold may be slightly different for each diver but without question you should have had no symptoms upon reaching 20'

If you think back to the dive you will probably note that one of the things that accompanied the narcosis and subsequent panic attack, was an elevated level of reparation (yes I do know that I suck at spelling, please forgive). When divers begin to breath at a higher rate on of the things that typically happens is that we start to build up and retain CO2. As you know this is the biproduct of matabolizing O2. And as you probably know this is what triggers or breathing response. So as CO2 builds our bodies body signals our brain that we need to breath. This is not in an effort to get more O2 it is an effort to expell excess CO2. If we don't purge the CO2 (via exhailing) our body repeats the signal that we need to breath. A diver building up CO2 and not getting rid of it properly will have the real and unfortunate felling like they cannot get enough air. (However this is a lie our body is telling us. Or more acuratly our mind is telling us. Our body is just sending a signal, we interpret it wrong.) So they breath harder and faster, and typically shallower. This is where the little trick you learn in the open water class comes in handy...... STOP, BREATH, THINK, ACT.
STOP all activity so we lower our workload for one, and it stops us (hopefully from doing something foolish).
BREATH... nice deep inhales and nice deep exhales. This will get rid of the CO2.
During this time it is critical that we
THINK about our situation..
First you have to remember you have a bunch of gas with you...(hopefully this
is true, if you've planned well it will be true). If once your in control again you
are running low no big deal you've planned with your buddy for him to have
enough gas to get both of you to the surface on his tanks. (I hope you plan that
way)
Second. We need to devise a plan and figure out what we will do. If our gas is
still in good suppy and we've remedied the problem, I may choose to continue
my dive, I may choose to abort. The important thing is to make a plan.
Throughout this entire time I am still STOPPED, and controlling my BREATHING.
Once your breathing is under control, don't start off on your journey again just yet, take a few more minutes and get a TOTAL grip on yourself, relax a few extra minutes. You got the time and gas. Hopefully your buddy is there with you.
Check your gas supply, look around and see what is going on around you.Now that you've calmed down
ACT on the plan that you have devised while thinking about things getting your breathing under control.

If for some reason that plan does not work.... STOP, BREATH, THINK of another plan, then ACT on that. Repeat as necessory.


Some things I would recommend would be that you:

Well first things first... get medically cleared to dive... but beyond that

Take some time with a buddy, someone that has the same likes as you, the same motivations for diving etc.. Go do some simple little reef dives, ones that are simple to plan for and not difficult to execute. Do 10 - 15 try to pick sites that your familier with or use these dive to get that way. Don't do a new site each time. Stick to a few sites so you can get to know them WELL. Name the rocks! The fish should know you well enough that they come up and visit you :05: You and your buddy should talk about emergency skills, lost buddy, lost gas, lost mask, lost reg, etc... Get in the habit of talking with your buddy about where you like him to be. (ie. always on your right, your left) and then practice staying that way throughout the dive. It is a great comfort to know RIGHT where your buddy is. If he is not where you expect him then you know somethings up. Go out and practice airsharing, mask removal, regulator retrieval. Practice ascents and descents. You should be able to stop at any depth. Go out and get to 40' then just do an ascent stopping for 15 seconds or so every 3 - 5 feet.. After doing this for some time you will be amazed at how easily you'll be able to ascend without any effort. Make sure you and your buddy come up exactly together, keeping an eye on one another. You'll find that your bouyancy skill will improve immensly as you master these things.
Once you can pull off these skill comfortably and skilfully it's probably time to see about changing things up a bit on the dives. So find some sites that are new, stay shallow still but go to these new sights and do these drills in new surroundings. Then its time to seek out some advanced classes... Navigation should be the first thing on every divers list of classes. You can't do anything without. It is the foundation on which all the advanced classes are built... except gas spacific class'. Now go out to those familier sites and find all your old buddies (the rocks and fishies) but get to know them by thier compass headings. Now go somewhere new.
Once you can go to a new sight and can comfortably navigate yourselfs around it's time to take another course... try night diving it's awesome. Stay shallow no need to go deep yet... By now you should have about 50 - 75 dives under your belt. There is still a ton of stuff in the shallows (60' and above) that you haven't seen yet. Have some fun with the navigation and the night diving.

 

[waynne fowler]

Through out this time you should be reading everything you can on diving physics and physiology. On equipment configurations and choices. There are a ton of places to go on the web that can be quite informative. You need to search it all...everything...anywhere you can find it. There is a lot of crap out there but there is also alot of good stuff. As you become educated you'll be able to, hopefully, pick out the good stuff from all the BS.
By now you will have built a repore with some local divers and will have gotten to know some of the people who are doing some of the dives you aspire to. It's now time to pick youself a mentor. Find someone who is free with knowledge, LOVES diving and knows how to relay information properly TO YOU. They may not be a teacher by trade, you don't care about someone who teachs because they get paid to, you want someone that teaches because that is what they were born to do. It is great if you find a teacher who knows how to teach, all the better.
From this point on you'll be able to figure it out.

One word of advice... you said that " nicotine or medcation did not cause my accident, this wasnt the 1st time i had chewed nic gum or taken a medication. This was the first time diving with motion sickness patch and using nitrox at a deep dive?????

Perhaps your right, perhaps.... but perhaps your only partially right. Can you say catagorically, with absolute certainty that neither the nicotine or the meds (you do realize you have now admitted that something other than the motion sickness meds were involved?... no judgement just pointing that out) did not elevate what may have otherwise only amounted to a minor stressfull moment, into full on panic.
I am speaking from personal experience, if I call you a bonehead for using the gum I must call myself a bonehead also as I have used it, I no longer do as I felt the elevated heartrate during the course of a highstress moment and recognized that it was much more difficult to get my breathing under control because it.

A final word.... Everything I have said... every word throughout this entire thread is a giant waste of time for you... IF... IF... you cannot be honest with yourself. You can be as hidden as you wish here on the forums, you can with hold anything and everything and we will never know the difference, hell we won't even really care, we don't know you probably won't ever know you... If you won a million dollers tomorrow we wouldn't care. If you drop dead tomorrow, we'd never know. When we found out, someone would write something sweet, someone would wright something icky, the next day we wouldn't care.
However your family do care, those who know you do care, I turly get the feeling that LJ cares even though you may not count each other as 'friends'. It is evident by reading your posts that there is much that you will not tell the list here.. That is fine. The one person you should not try to fool is yourself. Medications CAN have an effect, over the counter drugs CAN have an effect.. You need to talk to your doctor and let them tell you whether a drug is safe or not. Drugs can certainly enhance our lives on land, but those same drugs, underwater can mean certain death. Get educated about the potential dangers before diving they may pose more of a danger to your buddy then to you, by simply making you unable to assist them in their moment of need. I can tell by the way you speak, that if your buddy ended up dead on your watch because you were too jacked up to help them you would not be able to sleep with yourself.

 

[casemanager]

i have to jump in here, LJ continues to act like he was my personal doctor/law enforcement officer. I have never spoken to LJ, I never spoke with him directly on the boat, at the hospital, on the phone, after the dive and I have never done any psychotherapy with LJ. What he heard and if he heard anything falls under patient confidentiality laws, I would like LJ to report to you all the medications he uses, the other diver's medications, etc.

FOR me to start naming names is totally inappropriate. I am not here to blame others, I am here to understand and learn.

1) I REALIZE I NEED MORE SHALLOW DIVING SKILLS
2) I KNOW THAT I GOT INTO TROUBLE MYSELF
3) INSTRUCTORS ARE A DIME A DOZEN
4) MY IDEA OF A CHECKOUT DIVE WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT A SUPERVISED DIVE
5) THE NAUI ADVANCED CLASS IS A JOKE
6) HAVING AN EMBOLISM IS NOT FUN & TAKES A SERIOUS BLOW TO YOUR BODY
7) EXPERIENCING FEAR OF WATER IS NORMAL BECAUSE MY BODY HAS BEEN THROUGH MAJOR STRESS
8)SPENDING 5 HOURS IN A CHAMBER WAS NOT FUN
9)YOU CANT RELY ON YOUR BUDDY OR INSTRUCTOR
10)IF I EVER DIVE AGAIN, IT WILL BE 1:1 WITH A WATCHFUL INSTRUCTOR
11)GETTING A MEDICAL CHECKOUT BEFORE I DIVE WILL BE A PRIORITY
12)NEVER DIVE WITH THE CREW THAT I HAD THE ACCIDENT WITH
13)TAKE A 3 MONTH TRIP TO HAWAII AND HIRE THAT INSTRUCTOR WHO MADE ME FEEL SAFE AND SECURE

By the way LJ, are you DAN Qualified and Certified, because you act like you know everything about medications, nicotine gum, transdermal patches, narcosis, vertigo, fear, panic, instructor relationships, Emergency Medical Services, hyberbaric chambers, er doctors, Panic Attacks, Panic Disorder, hyperventilation, CO2, DIAGNOSTIC STATISTIC MANUAL 4EDTION REVISED (DSM-4R).

Just to let you all know, I have a Master's Degree in clinical psychology and I think I can understand on my own how my body reacts to certain changes and since I have been diving before and never had any problems, I came to this board for some words of wisdom, not constant insults.