spare air advice

[spectrum]

If the OP is still here you may find this old post interesting. It illustrates how much air you may want to have with you and lets you appreciate how little life support a 3 CF cylinder offers.

Pete

 

[Sideband]

Too bad. You were making a good point until you lost credibility with "will likely end with you bent". It is an increase of a very small risk for recreational divers. It is simply not likely.

Why is it necessary to exagerate the truth to make a valid point?

First of all it was in response to "I'd rather be bent on the surface than dead at X feet". Ending up bent was their choice/words, not mine.

Secondly, I was just reading an article in diver magazine about a DAN study on diver deaths. 26% of all the deaths in the study involved an emergency ascent. Something to think about.

I'm curious how 5 valid points somehow just became worthless because of one other sentence. But what difference does it make since I've "lost credibility". I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.

 

[diver 85]

Sideband you said.........."26% of all the deaths in the study involved an emergency ascent. Something to think about."(per DAN).......Don't you think most, if not all, these people were already in trouble to begin with ie BEFORE the ESA(otherwise why would they be doing a ESA).........So, maybe they would have bit the bullet anyway without the ESA....also, any reason to not believe that without an ESA, divings deaths would be higher.....That's sort of like saying 10 people last year nation wide were killed in auto wrecks FOR wearing seatbelts BECAUSE without them they would NOT have been crushed in the automobile--ie they might have survived if they had been ejected........

 

[Nemrod]

The trouble they were in is that they were out of air or had an equipment failure, the seatbelt analogy does not work because the pony bottle is the seatbelt and airbag.

N

 

[Puffer Fish]

again some great advice... thanks. really need to decide what to get. you make valid points and again I appreciate you letting me know what might be obviouse you a more expierienced diver.

thanks for that guesstimate excersize... I will start doing that.

ok, so what type/brand of reg. should I get? I will need the pressure guage the octo and a primary and the low pessure inflator for the BC. But I will be buying a watch type computer (probably the oceanic GEO). HMMMNNN I wonder if its just worth the extra to up-grade to the oceanic atom 2.0 which comes with a psi hoseless transmitter and forego the gauges alltogether??? is this something that would be OK? I think that would pay for itself as the difference between the atom and the geo is about the same as what I would spend on the analog guages.

also, could you give me some idea what the cost is to maintain a regulator... and, how oftn should you have it maintained?

Again thank you John. I appreciate all of your help much. at the end of the day I really want my own reg. set anyway

Ok, you had me until the Atom... a wireless computer. Nice toy... I have a scubapro version that is wireless, but they are not more reliable.. not safer... and when it breaks (and it will)... you now don't have either a SPG or a computer.

You can dive tables.. and a SPG, while not that accurate, is very reliable. A good regulator (cleaned, taken care of and serviced once a year), makes sense...

 

[Sideband]

Sideband you said.........."26% of all the deaths in the study involved an emergency ascent. Something to think about."(per DAN).......Don't you think most, if not all, these people were already in trouble to begin with ie BEFORE the ESA(otherwise why would they be doing a ESA).........So, maybe they would have bit the bullet anyway without the ESA....also, any reason to not believe that without an ESA, divings deaths would be higher.....That's sort of like saying 10 people last year nation wide were killed in auto wrecks FOR wearing seatbelts BECAUSE without them they would NOT have been crushed in the automobile--ie they might have survived if they had been ejected........

I don't quite get your point. Obviously they were in trouble before the emergency ascent. That is what makes it an emergency ascent. My contention is that whatever preceeded the emergency ascent could have been avoided or fixed by any of several previous decisions.
If poor air planning was the cause of the ooa then a better predive plan could have saved a life and the dive should have been aborted before it began.
If not following the plan was the cause then choosing to follow it instead of not could have saved a life and the dive should have been aborted.
If environmental conditions made the plan obsolete then aborting the dive could have saved a life.
If it was not possible to stay with a buddy for ANY reason then aborting the dive could have saved a life.
In any case where there was a death preceeded by an emergency ascent, where was the buddy? I can not think of any reason to make an emergency ascent if you have air and if you have a buddy you have air. If you are making that emergency ascent then you have already made at least one possibly fatal choice not to abort the dive.

 

[RPanick]

Everyone has given you all the technical reasons why not to go with a Spare Air, if you haven't figured it out yet, here are the non technical reasons not to get one.

1. Divers you would really like to be your buddy won't be your buddy if you have a Spare Air. I know that when I see someone on a boat with one, I make a point to stay away from them. Hence you get the people you would least like to buddy with.
2. After watching a guy with one all week in Roatan, where it was always hanging several feet below him on a line connected to his BC. God knows how much damage he did with that thing to the reef. Attaching them to a BC is problamatic, particularly with a rental BC.

The advice to put your money into a good Reg and have it serviced yearly is the best advice. It doesn't take much space in your bag, its also the foundation for additional gear you will want like a computer or BC. Check with your local dive shop, they may have gear that they may be selling that they use for classes. Its usually serviced, includes a console and is a nice starting point, frequently at a reasonable price.

One thing you will find the better divers do, except on drift dives, is to not follow the DM. The DM has a routine, take them down deep enough to burn their air up, then take them back, hopefully showing them something. My wife absolutely hates to follow a DM, so we dive under the boat, making a nice wide circle right around it. Most of the time we are in 25-40 of water, where you will find most of the stuff anyway. We swim real slow and stop and look at stuff. You will be amazed at what you can find by slowing down. If by chance we have a problem, we can pop to the surface at any time with very little risk, and within a short swim of the boat.

When my wife isn't with me, and if the boat crew doesn't object, I go solo doing the same around the boat trick. There's usually a few people around and I'm not going very far so very low risk. Its also much more relaxing not having to keep track of someone else. I was diving in Key Largo and I was diving with pretty much the same group all week. By the end of the week, I had about half a dozen other divers diving my style, all grins we found eel, shrimp, crabs, as well as a bunch of other stuff.

Oh on air consumption, usually on the boat after 60 minutes with 1500+ still in the bottle. Amazing what not swimming behind the DM will do for your air consumption.

 

[OceanicRocks]

Everyone has given you all the technical reasons why not to go with a Spare Air, if you haven't figured it out yet, here are the non technical reasons not to get one.

1. Divers you would really like to be your buddy won't be your buddy if you have a Spare Air. I know that when I see someone on a boat with one, I make a point to stay away from them. Hence you get the people you would least like to buddy with.
2. After watching a guy with one all week in Roatan, where it was always hanging several feet below him on a line connected to his BC. God knows how much damage he did with that thing to the reef. Attaching them to a BC is problamatic, particularly with a rental BC.

The advice to put your money into a good Reg and have it serviced yearly is the best advice. It doesn't take much space in your bag, its also the foundation for additional gear you will want like a computer or BC. Check with your local dive shop, they may have gear that they may be selling that they use for classes. Its usually serviced, includes a console and is a nice starting point, frequently at a reasonable price.

One thing you will find the better divers do, except on drift dives, is to not follow the DM. The DM has a routine, take them down deep enough to burn their air up, then take them back, hopefully showing them something. My wife absolutely hates to follow a DM, so we dive under the boat, making a nice wide circle right around it. Most of the time we are in 25-40 of water, where you will find most of the stuff anyway. We swim real slow and stop and look at stuff. You will be amazed at what you can find by slowing down. If by chance we have a problem, we can pop to the surface at any time with very little risk, and within a short swim of the boat.

When my wife isn't with me, and if the boat crew doesn't object, I go solo doing the same around the boat trick. There's usually a few people around and I'm not going very far so very low risk. Its also much more relaxing not having to keep track of someone else. I was diving in Key Largo and I was diving with pretty much the same group all week. By the end of the week, I had about half a dozen other divers diving my style, all grins we found eel, shrimp, crabs, as well as a bunch of other stuff.

Oh on air consumption, usually on the boat after 60 minutes with 1500+ still in the bottle. Amazing what not swimming behind the DM will do for your air consumption.

thank you for your post... a couple of questions for you.

1. why do you stay away from divers that carry the POS "spare air" ? is it because you feel they will ditch you in an emergency using the spare air... is it that we know its insufficient and therefore feel that the diver is not educated in that scence. orother.

2. I'm not sure of diving solo yet. I findcomfort with diving with others. However, I agree that not following the dive master will probably allow you to slow down and do your own thing. I wonder if other buddies wouldbe open to this the next time im on a boat??? You are lucky to have a buddy most of the time. my wife does not dive. Ilove it.

3. when you dive your own path/pattern at the shallower depth, i wonder if the guys on the boat would get pissed at you if they had to wait for you 20 minutes after everyone else came up.

4. I'm surprised you say not to follow the DM. especially that you are a DM. I guess you would know th tricks of the trade and I thought that these guys get into diving and become DM because they love what they do. However, I could see how it could get anoying with some folks out there.

again thanks for your post interesting suggestions. keep them coming.

 

[Damselfish]

2. I'm not sure of diving solo yet. I findcomfort with diving with others. However, I agree that not following the dive master will probably allow you to slow down and do your own thing. I wonder if other buddies wouldbe open to this the next time im on a boat??? You are lucky to have a buddy most of the time. my wife does not dive. Ilove it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you dive solo at this point. And yes, doing your own thing may be harder to arrange with an insta-buddy than a regular buddy. They may be unsure of themselves or unsure of you. Same for you. But if you get a good/like-minded/experienced buddy someplace, they might want just as much as you not to follow the divemaster sometimes. This will be more likely to happen if you are in a situation where you get to dive with the same person a number of dives/days in a row. (Or if you are on a dive where there is no DM in the water!)

I am almost always diving with my husband or occasionally someone else I know pretty well, so it's easier. We only follow the DM if it makes sense to us for a given dive. This really needs to be decided on a case by case basis. Even if we're sort of following we tend to be pretty far away or behind. And just because I'm not following the DM does not mean I am not diving to the same depth or just staying under the boat, it's completely unrelated.

3. when you dive your own path/pattern at the shallower depth, i wonder if the guys on the boat would get pissed at you if they had to wait for you 20 minutes after everyone else came up.

some boats set a time limit that you have to be up by, and you don't want to consistently exceed that by much. But if they don't set a time limit and you are down longer, within reason it shouldn't be a problem. What "within reason" means is something you have to learn and play by ear. I don't think being down 60 when most were down 40 is usually too bad, that's a common range of times. If the water is really rough and there are people feeding the fish, it might be nice to come up a bit sooner. If it was planned to be a shorter dive on a deep site and everyone else is up in 30, staying down there for 60 or 90 is rude.

4. I'm surprised you say not to follow the DM. especially that you are a DM. I guess you would know th tricks of the trade and I thought that these guys get into diving and become DM because they love what they do. However, I could see how it could get anoying with some folks out there.

Yes, some dives, following the DM is useless. But some DMs do a good job of leading dives and pointing out stuff, or navigating to special things, and aren't just out to make you burn your air. Sometimes hanging near the DM or the group you will get to see more stuff because of lots of people finding things. Sometimes you will not want to just swim under the boat, whether or not you follow the DM. Often there is some specific feature of a site that is deeper and or not right under the boat, often it is the main reason you have come to that site to begin with. Sometimes you can't hang out at 30 feet under the boat, because the boat is in 80 feet of water. You can't generalize. You have to read about a site if you can, and listen to the dive briefing, to help decide what to do. And talk with your buddy. These things don't always need an elaborate plan. With a good buddy or someone you can dive with a lot, you will be able to figure these things out as you go and communicate them UW.

 

[Tom Winters]

how do you feel about a pony with about 13 cu?

Pony bottle size depnds on the diver - if you're 6'5, weigh 250 pounds, and breathe air like a whale, a 13 just will not cut it.
If you're going to mess with a pony rig, the 19 or 30 is not too bad for most people. I have 40's for deco bottles, and they get a little cumbersome for most dives.
On the rigging - there are a number of well-engineered bottle attachments that clamp the pony to your main tank. I still prefer rigging it like a stage bottle. I like the warm, fuzzy feeling I get KNOWING the thing is tucked right under my arm. It's in the the way a little, but worth the aggro.