South florida boat traffic, points of view, dive flags and people

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I'm with the free divers and Ana on this one.
The only caveat I might offer is that VERY strictly speaking,
a dive flag of sorts instead of an orange surface marker on the free divers part would be a better idea.
Why?
So the free divers can give the SCUBA crowd a hearty and smiling suggestion that they call the Coasties, FWC, and BSO a call all at once and let them figure out who the invader is.

It has happened before that the boat I was on has anticipated an issue and has signaled me/us to come up early while on SCUBA and we were vectoring/sliding into a potentially dangerous to one of the two groups areas of operation.

Chug
Not hostile to free divers with an intelligent support captain.
 
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I am not with the OP on this one, at all.

First, you put divers in the water who are diving and surfacing without a dive flag. They have an "orange float" which means and signifies nothing to boaters and is probably not even visible until the last second. So, you have no right to expect other boats to avoid the area, and no right to harass other boats in the area when you don't have the common sense and consideration--let alone your legal obligation--to signal them with the universally recognized flag that divers are present. How do you “motivate” the boats to avoid the area where you have divers operating basically in secret—do you threaten to ram them or approach as if you intend to do so, forcing them to change course?

As for the scuba divers, who were acting lawfully, had the proper equipment, and were within the legal distance of their flag, your attitude is incomprehensible. First, you had over 1/2 hour to watch their flag approaching and avoid it. It is nothing but an instant's work to have your freedivers get on board, avoid the scuba flag and circle back at the appropriate distance and jump in again. You were not stuck in your spot, unlike the scuba divers, who have no such mobility at all. There is lots of reef around Horseshoe, as you know. Bottom line--their flag gave them the right-of-way and an expectation of safety and respect.

Even worse, you revved your engine--how are they to know you were not in gear or are about to get in gear at high speed due to the revving? What on earth else does revving signal? Is this part of your “motivation” routine? Your actions were not only illegal but threatening as well. The other skipper’s reaction of asking the diver closest to him “why is he doing that” is perfectly understandable. Your comment that it “the diver wasn’t revving, ha ha” makes you look even more ignorant of how wrong you were.

If you had a proper diver down flag, that might have at least alerted the other boat that other divers were in the area and some radio coordination might have been needed or (with you being there first) he might have called his divers up.

Your actions were not “reasonable”. It is only if navigational exigencies such as confined space or extreme currents force you within 300 feet of the flag, then you proceed at idle. No such existed in your case. You had no flag. You had no right of way. You had surface divers that are easy to get into your boat and avoid the flag at the proper distance. You had plenty of time. Maximizing your spearing catch is not a “reasonable” reason to disregard a dive flag. You actually do not have “just as much right” to the reef if you do not display a flag.

If the FWC had been there, the divers with lobster gear would have gotten a nice fine. You would have not fared any better, though, hopefully.

Your attitude that you own the ocean without complying with law, that you are Wyatt Earp and Rambo rolled into one, that law abiding divers are contemptible, that other boats and divers are targets for a game of chicken and threats, and, worst of all, that you do not even care enough to properly mark your own divers, makes you, not others, the problem.
 
I think if one of your guys had been towing a torpedo float with a flag ( like the good Omer or Riffe Floats), and your boat was flying a dive flag as well...you would have had every legal and moral right to stay in the "sweet spot" you had chosen to watch your freedivers from.

In fact, I would argue you would have had more right than the scuba divers, because the freedivers need more direct protection from their own boat than scuba divers do.
But the way I understand the law, you were barely moving and being careful, as was the scuba boat, so you BOTH had the legal right to be where each of you felt you needed to be--as long as you did not collide with each other :)

Also....both the scuba divers AND the freedivers need to have enough peripheral awareness so that they do not entangle in each other's lines....I think this is on them, not really on either boat.


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That's a NICE float. Might get one for my beach diving. Looks like a bigger and higher flag than most regular flag rigs.
 
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Yes Dan, the boys were towing an OMER float, similar to this one without the dive flag maybe a bit bigger (20~24" diameter), and I was flying a pretty big dive flag very high on my boat.
 
If you were tracking them, and close to their float, then your flag was "their flag"...and you and your divers had their legal dive flag.
So the scuba divers had absolutely no business having their hissy fit.
 
I am not with the OP on this one, at all.

First, you put divers in the water who are diving and surfacing without a dive flag. They have an "orange float" which means and signifies nothing to boaters and is probably not even visible until the last second. So, you have no right to expect other boats to avoid the area, and no right to harass other boats in the area when you don't have the common sense and consideration--let alone your legal obligation--to signal them with the universally recognized flag that divers are present. How do you “motivate” the boats to avoid the area where you have divers operating basically in secret—do you threaten to ram them or approach as if you intend to do so, forcing them to change course?

As for the scuba divers, who were acting lawfully, had the proper equipment, and were within the legal distance of their flag, your attitude is incomprehensible. First, you had over 1/2 hour to watch their flag approaching and avoid it. It is nothing but an instant's work to have your freedivers get on board, avoid the scuba flag and circle back at the appropriate distance and jump in again. You were not stuck in your spot, unlike the scuba divers, who have no such mobility at all. There is lots of reef around Horseshoe, as you know. Bottom line--their flag gave them the right-of-way and an expectation of safety and respect.

Even worse, you revved your engine--how are they to know you were not in gear or are about to get in gear at high speed due to the revving? What on earth else does revving signal? Is this part of your “motivation” routine? Your actions were not only illegal but threatening as well. The other skipper’s reaction of asking the diver closest to him “why is he doing that” is perfectly understandable. Your comment that it “the diver wasn’t revving, ha ha” makes you look even more ignorant of how wrong you were.

If you had a proper diver down flag, that might have at least alerted the other boat that other divers were in the area and some radio coordination might have been needed or (with you being there first) he might have called his divers up.

Your actions were not “reasonable”. It is only if navigational exigencies such as confined space or extreme currents force you within 300 feet of the flag, then you proceed at idle. No such existed in your case. You had no flag. You had no right of way. You had surface divers that are easy to get into your boat and avoid the flag at the proper distance. You had plenty of time. Maximizing your spearing catch is not a “reasonable” reason to disregard a dive flag. You actually do not have “just as much right” to the reef if you do not display a flag.

If the FWC had been there, the divers with lobster gear would have gotten a nice fine. You would have not fared any better, though, hopefully.

Your attitude that you own the ocean without complying with law, that you are Wyatt Earp and Rambo rolled into one, that law abiding divers are contemptible, that other boats and divers are targets for a game of chicken and threats, and, worst of all, that you do not even care enough to properly mark your own divers, makes you, not others, the problem.

I've started to answer this post a few times but can't find the right wording to convey my response in an accurate and respectful manner. Just going to say I did have a big dive flag in the boat, so we were not "operating in secret" there will be no change on my procedures other than trying harder to avoid engaging with upset people in the water.
 
Ana: I don't know if this will make you feel any better, but there's at least one commercial scuba operator in Palm Beach County that conducts the dives like you do: e.g. divers tethered to a float (not flag) which the boat follows closely and a big flag on the boat. That's how the Scuba Club operates and they are a very safety oriented dive boat.

---------- Post added August 6th, 2015 at 10:52 AM ----------

If you were tracking them, and close to their float, then your flag was "their flag"...and you and your divers had their legal dive flag.
So the scuba divers had absolutely no business having their hissy fit.

I agree with Dan on this one! Many private boats operate this way too.
 
Ana, I also agree. Your post made it seem like you did not have any flag. I think the take-away from my post is you need to signal your fellow boaters. In fact, you did so. If boaters still approach too close, it is fine by me if you approach them with the flag so they know to change course. I unreservedly apologize for the tone of my post.

General comments on the topic (not critical of you in any way). I would have my freedive team carry a flag float, just as a last resort warning if a boat comes in close and you can't warn it off.

Some interesting comments in general on who is in the most danger while drifting--freedivers or scuba? To me (doing both) the true issue is who is in more danger at the surface. If a collision seems imminent, I think you have to get down to at least 10 feet to be safe from most boats. A freediver can do this in just a few seconds and at least have a decent chance of avoiding a collision. A scuba diver on the surface after their ascent just can't. They will have their BCs inflated, and might be buoyant having used their gas. Getting down to 10 feet will require dumping BC and doing an awkward turn and descent, all of which would take probably 15-20 seconds, a hopeless eternity if a boat is approaching at speed.

I can tell you, I am much more stressed on the surface after a scuba dive waiting to be picked up than I ever am freediving. So, scuba divers who surface and see a boat close by, under power and perhaps giving an impression with high engine revs that is aggressively maneuvering under power, might (probably will) be upset or frightened and react accordingly, regardless if your motivation is merely to keep close to your divers. I offer this perspective to counter the, in my view, contemptuous attitude shown the scuba divers in some posts. It's just not that simple. You need to understand and respect just how exposed and particularly vulnerable they are.

I do stand by my belief that there were better ways this could have been handled. You and the scuba boat had a lot of time to react. So why no radio contact--and I equally fault the scuba boat for this but they have not appeared here to explain their actions. Some simple communication might have made this never happen at all.

Finally, as a last resort as the scuba flag bore down on your position, was it really too much effort to bring your divers in and circle to a safe distance behind the scuba flag and drop your people? With freedivers, that is nothing out of the way to do. The scuba divers, however, are down, not retrievable and re-droppable (let alone concerns re yo-yo profiles) and probably don't and can't even know they are approaching another dive boat. I am not saying that scuba divers automatically get greater deference, if you will, but this is just common sense.

Finally, although the tone of my post was hard, yours was as well towards the divers and I might suggest that their concerns were not unwarranted and they did not overreact. They, after all, had just as much right to "motivate" you not to run under power near them as you have to similarly "motivate" others with regard to your divers. And, if you revved up your engine to taunt or put fear into them (no other reason to rev up if you are at idle speed), then that was wrong of you, in my opinion.
 
Few comments for clarification.

-At the time I didn't think it was necessary for anyone to leave the water, as long as the lines didn't cross, each group could've gone at their own rhythm.

-When I revved the engine was not in any way directed to the divers, there was a pretty big boat coming their way (at the time both free and scuba divers were kinda close). Very soon after that boat altered his course is when the divers surfaced, if they would've stay under few more minutes the currents would've separated us enough for each group to have plenty of space.

-I didn't attempt radio communications but I did have my radio on, at high volume on channel 16.

-The tone on my initial post was hard, and I am aggressive when I'm guarding divers regardless if they keep their air in a bottle or their lungs.

-I didn't post looking for agreement or criticism, I posted hoping to get a response from either the divers or the boaters. I wanted to fight someone at that point, but truly to tell the divers that at no time they were in danger from my boat, and ask the boaters what were they thinking? that taking divers out is not just dropping them in the water and then drift far away until they resurface, at least not in S. Florida and definitely not close to an inlet.
 
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