Something's not right...

[DiveExtreme22]

im BOW newly certified in may and on my first dive trip to playa del carmen the DM took us to 65 feet 45 feet and 40 feet the first day, and then decided that i was ready to do a 105 foot dive, and it didnt really make any difference at all, it was kind of cool knowing what narcosis feels like first hand now and feeling first hand how much harder it is to breathe off a reg at theat depth...but the DM thought i was ready and i was confident so i did it...then he asked me to go to the mama vina (wreck) and my parents wouldnt let me because im only 15 =-(

 

[DiveExtreme22]

to add to that post real quick after learning a lot more about diving i know it would have been stupid to do the wreck dive before i was ready, but i still think it would have been cool just to go to the wreck and have a look around it and not go in it...oh well

 

[MikeFerrara]

Many people here are very against the concept of a trust me dive, because frankly, some of the DMs aren't worth trusting your life with.

No DM is worth trusting your life to

I'm not as harsh on a trust me dive, because in the beginning, your dives really are trust me dives. You trust your instructor to determine whether that current is slow enough to dive in, you trust your instructor to keep you safe an the dive, because you are still learning the skills themselves.

Not true. While it is true that during training the instructor is there to pick up the slack if you make a mistake you should already have demonstrated competance in all the skills required to manage the entire dive without an instructor. Skills are learned in confined/shallow water. OW dives are where experience is gained.

Unfortunately many instructors take divers to OW before skills are learned but that's NOT the way the standards intend it to be done.

I also think you by definition have trust me dives in certain advanced training. First wreck penetration is in a way a trust me dive. First time you use a jump line on a cave dive is a trust me dive.

No. again all required skills have been practiced in OW. If the instructor drops dead of a hear attack during a cave or wreck dive the student should posses the skills required to get themselves out without help. And again training dives should besupervised experience. Simply supervised application of previously mastered skills.

Diving in general is geared toward trust me dives. That's what many of the dive destinations advocate. Trust us, we'll get you back.

This may be an accurate description of much of the tourist industry but not diving in general. Dive training is geared (at least according to standards) to preparing a diver to independantly conduct dive at their level of training and experience.

Sadly, a small number do not make it back. It is safer to never do a trust me dive that you can avoid. You and your wife would have been safer had you built up a little bit more skill before that dive to 74 feet. However, in your class, you may have gone to 60 feet, you may have felt comfortable at 74 without a DM, but the added bonus of a DM made you more at ease and thus you enjoyed the dive more.

I'm not going to knock you for the decision. I'll just point out that you are always safer when you can take care of yourself underwater.

Xanthro

Nothing wrong with having a guide in an unfamiliar location. However the purpose of the guide should be to help you find the points of interest and maybe orient you to local procedures.

The guide should never be depended upon for a safe return. If you don't feel that you can complete a dive on your own you should not start it in the first place.

Xanthro, you should get your hands on some training standards and read them. you've been writing alot about the goals and methods of training but you have some fairly serious misconceptions.

PADI standards cost money and are only for sale to PADI DM's and instructors but other agencies have their standards available to any one.

IANTD standards (not instructor outlines) are available for viewing and download at www.IANTD.com Unfortunately the instructor outlines discuss a few skills that aren't listed in the standards and procedures but you'll get the idea.

 

[tndiveinstruct1]

When I learned to dive, PADI did not even prohibit this. Students doing their OW cert. dives could enter overheads, mostly because the standards were silent on the issue.
Conceivably, since they allow a "discover" dive for almost any other advanced specialty during OW training dives (e.g. nitrox) it's not unthinkable that they could allow a "discover overheads" - remember, passing under a suspended 4'x 8' sheet of plywood, open on all sides, 10 feet below the surface constitutes a currently prohibited for trainees overhead.

And when did you learn to dive, because it has always been a standard according to a fellow instructor that has been teaching for over 25 years. And the PADI Instructor Manual states the following:

PADI General Standards and Procedures. In the Open Water training dive section:

Do not conduct open water training dives or Discover Scuba Diving experience dives in caves, caverns, under ice or in any situation where direct vertical access to the surface is not possible. Exceptions include Ice, Cavern or Wreck Diver Specialty courses, and special orientation dives for certified divers.

If your instructor took you into an overhead environment on your training dives, then he/she violated standards.

Randy

 

[MASS-Diver]

Great post Mike, I think that about sums it up.

 

[Xanthro]

Many people here are very against the concept of a trust me dive, because frankly, some of the DMs aren't worth trusting your life with.

No DM is worth trusting your life to

At some level, you are placing your trust in a DM if you are on a DM lead dive. Is the DM taking you someplace beyond your ability, is the DM going to get lost.

I'm not as harsh on a trust me dive, because in the beginning, your dives really are trust me dives. You trust your instructor to determine whether that current is slow enough to dive in, you trust your instructor to keep you safe an the dive, because you are still learning the skills themselves.

Not true. While it is true that during training the instructor is there to pick up the slack if you make a mistake you should already have demonstrated competance in all the skills required to manage the entire dive without an instructor. Skills are learned in confined/shallow water. OW dives are where experience is gained.

Here we must disagree. Even if a student has aparently mastered a skill in confined water does not mean under the very different circumstances of an open water dive, that the student will not freak out and make a major mistake.

You simply can't predict with perfection how a person is going to act under different circumstances. Even if the diver feels confident in his or her own skills, even if the teacher is convinced of the person's skill, does not mean the change of circumstances will require instructor intervention to save the students life.

A student may be unaware of a phobia, and utterly freak out when seeing an eel.

I don't have much of a panic response, but that doesn't mean that when I do something which I have never experienced before, that I discount the possibility that this circumstance could induce panic. I don't dwell on it, but dismissing the possiblity is dangerous.

I don't embark on new life threatening actions, regardless of my sense of skill in the action, unless I am with someone I trust to handle the situation. That is a trust me dive in my opinion.

Unfortunately many instructors take divers to OW before skills are learned but that's NOT the way the standards intend it to be done.

Skill in confined water has no actual bearing. Sure the person's skill in open water may be fine, but skill is only part of the diving experience. Greater depth may cause claustraphobic reactions, increase in cold may cause panic.

There are a wide variety of factor outside of skill that affect a new diver. You are aware of this, and I'm sure you have encountered them.

I also think you by definition have trust me dives in certain advanced training. First wreck penetration is in a way a trust me dive. First time you use a jump line on a cave dive is a trust me dive.

No. again all required skills have been practiced in OW. If the instructor drops dead of a hear attack during a cave or wreck dive the student should posses the skills required to get themselves out without help. And again training dives should besupervised experience. Simply supervised application of previously mastered skills.

Perhaps we differ in what we define as a trust me dive. While a student should have the skill needed to complete the task, until that task has been completed under supervised instruction, to me it's a trust me dive.

You've learned to penetrate a wreck, you know what to do, but suddenly person is stuck and starts to panic, despite training.

Let's talk about first deep dives. You have no idea who the narcosis is going to affect you. It may have no affect, it may hit you like a brick. One second you are fine, the next you are helpless. You'd better have someone with you that you trust on your first deep dives, because you have no experience on who you are going to react.

To me, the same applys on any skill, though to a lesser degree.

Diving in general is geared toward trust me dives. That's what many of the dive destinations advocate. Trust us, we'll get you back.

This may be an accurate description of much of the tourist industry but not diving in general. Dive training is geared (at least according to standards) to preparing a diver to independantly conduct dive at their level of training and experience.

The tourist industry is a major part of diving, as you know. I'm not saying this trust me aspect is proper. In fact, if you carefully read what I posted, I'm saying it is not wise. I was subtly warning the person that despite the fact that many people make such trust me dives, and come out alive, you are in fact taking a unneeded risk.

Sadly, a small number do not make it back. It is safer to never do a trust me dive that you can avoid. You and your wife would have been safer had you built up a little bit more skill before that dive to 74 feet. However, in your class, you may have gone to 60 feet, you may have felt comfortable at 74 without a DM, but the added bonus of a DM made you more at ease and thus you enjoyed the dive more.

I'm not going to knock you for the decision. I'll just point out that you are always safer when you can take care of yourself underwater.

Nothing wrong with having a guide in an unfamiliar location. However the purpose of the guide should be to help you find the points of interest and maybe orient you to local procedures.

The guide should never be depended upon for a safe return. If you don't feel that you can complete a dive on your own you should not start it in the first place.

We are not in disagreement here. He and his wife may have felt skilled enough to do the dive in question, so I'm not going to knock his decision. Plus, jumping over someone after the fact hardly helps the learning process.

Xanthro, you should get your hands on some training standards and read them. you've been writing alot about the goals and methods of training but you have some fairly serious misconceptions.

I have written little about the goals and methods, I have written about the OUTCOMES of the training and methods.

You continually end up agreeing with me about what you call misconceptions.

PADI standards cost money and are only for sale to PADI DM's and instructors but other agencies have their standards available to any one.

IANTD standards (not instructor outlines) are available for viewing and download at www.IANTD.com Unfortunately the instructor outlines discuss a few skills that aren't listed in the standards and procedures but you'll get the idea.

I'll read them, thank you for the links.

Xanthro

 

[MASS-Diver]

If you train hard in open water/confined the skills will certainly transfer. With good training, the actual dives will seem easy compared to the training in shallow/open water - not harder or scarier.

If you don't train well, lots of the stuff mentioned can happened. A good instrucotor can notice students that don't have the head for serious diving with ease. Come on, you really like a well-trained is going to painic over seeing an eel.

With any serious diving, you've practiced the skills so many times that when it happens in "real life" it's no big deal.

Sudden narcosis - use the right gas and it's not an issue.

If your head is the right place, doing a skill on a "deep" dive is no different than in 10' of water - only poorly trained people become a different diver deep.

 

[MikeFerrara]

At some level, you are placing your trust in a DM if you are on a DM lead dive. Is the DM taking you someplace beyond your ability, is the DM going to get lost.

I'll take your word for it. I've never done one of those dives.

Here we must disagree. Even if a student has aparently mastered a skill in confined water does not mean under the very different circumstances of an open water dive, that the student will not freak out and make a major mistake.

You simply can't predict with perfection how a person is going to act under different circumstances. Even if the diver feels confident in his or her own skills, even if the teacher is convinced of the person's skill, does not mean the change of circumstances will require instructor intervention to save the students life.

A student may be unaware of a phobia, and utterly freak out when seeing an eel.

I don't have much of a panic response, but that doesn't mean that when I do something which I have never experienced before, that I discount the possibility that this circumstance could induce panic. I don't dwell on it, but dismissing the possiblity is dangerous.

There are no absolutes and and certainly not in diving. But...I cut my teeth assisting in the kind of classes where student panic all the time. I brought paniced divers up, scratching and clawing from 70 ft before my DM training was finished. After a while I figured maybe some one was doing something wrong. I started doing a few things differently and haven't had a diver panic in years. Still it is possible which is one reason why I am in the water.

The point is though that the reason people panic is because they become convinced that they've lost control...that they are out of options. Mastery of skills brings ability and confidance. While I've seen divers panic underwater, I have never seen a skilled confident and in control diver panic. NEVER. So, again, while there are no absolutes we can reduce the chances of panic to being very very small.

I don't embark on new life threatening actions, regardless of my sense of skill in the action, unless I am with someone I trust to handle the situation. That is a trust me dive in my opinion.

Yes and only you can breath for you and only you can swim for you. If things get ugly I wouldn't count on any one to be able to handle it for you. I know of divers being abandoned by instructors when trouble started.

Skill in confined water has no actual bearing. Sure the person's skill in open water may be fine, but skill is only part of the diving experience. Greater depth may cause claustraphobic reactions, increase in cold may cause panic.

Skill in confined water does have a direct bearing and if it's the divers first dive in cold water it's gonna be shallow and...he'll have experience in the exposure protection before hand.

I've never seen depth cause claustraphobic anything.

Perhaps we differ in what we define as a trust me dive. While a student should have the skill needed to complete the task, until that task has been completed under supervised instruction, to me it's a trust me dive.

The instructor is backup in OW. It's expected that the student won't need help. However since the student is gaining experience in a new environment, the instructor is there for backup. The term backup is very important as the instructor is not the primary wasy home.

You've learned to penetrate a wreck, you know what to do, but suddenly person is stuck and starts to panic, despite training.

Let's talk about first deep dives. You have no idea who the narcosis is going to affect you. It may have no affect, it may hit you like a brick. One second you are fine, the next you are helpless. You'd better have someone with you that you trust on your first deep dives, because you have no experience on who you are going to react.

To me, the same applys on any skill, though to a lesser degree.

What narcosis? We control that with our choice of gasses. We keep our END to a level that we know we can manage. PERIOD. Not every one does but that's their choice. However I never take a diver more than about 30 ft deeper than they've been before. The key here is to advance in manageable sized steps.

The tourist industry is a major part of diving, as you know. I'm not saying this trust me aspect is proper. In fact, if you carefully read what I posted, I'm saying it is not wise. I was subtly warning the person that despite the fact that many people make such trust me dives, and come out alive, you are in fact taking a unneeded risk.

We certainly agree here.

I have written little about the goals and methods, I have written about the OUTCOMES of the training and methods.

You continually end up agreeing with me about what you call misconceptions.



I'll read them, thank you for the links.

Xanthro

I think aall divers should read the standards prior to training.

 

[Sideband]

Next month I may be doing my first boat dive. It depends on which of 2 dives is selected. I have done all of my dives for AOW except the deep dive and have not been below 53 yet (35 quarry dives). One of the possible dives is the Willie, which is about 90' and the other (the car ferry) is closer to 120'. I have had several instructors tell me that if I'd consider the Willie that the ferry is just as doable. I disagree. The actual diveing conditions will be about the same but my big concern is getting narked. In my head, doubling my max depth is a big step. Going almost 3 times my max is too big. In all probability I would have no more problems with the ferry than the Willie. I'm not "afraid" of either but any time someone says, "We won't let anything happen to you", I have an alarm that goes off in my head. That car ferry will be there next year. I have to trust my gut feeling about what I'm ready for. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get narked and I want to experience it at a depth that I'm comfortable with MY skills at, not one that I'm comfortable with everyone elses skills. Heck, if there was a 75' dive option I'd choose it over the Willie for the first time. I have no problem with saying I'm not ready for something. Those same people have been trying to get me on this dive since I had 10 dives. They have all seen me in the water and I'm flattered that they think I'm ready but I'm not letting that effect my evaluation of myself. I don't want to be any place that I can't help myself. If I can't help me then I most likely can't help you either. Why someone would want a buddy like that on a dive to 120' is beyond me. Am I a wuss for not going for it? NOPE! I'm safe. In fact, I'm not only protecting myself, but I'm protecting my dive buddy as well.
I guess the big problem is knowing the difference between feeling ready for something and actually being ready. I try to err on the conservative side. The other dive will be there later.
Sorry for the "me, me" rant but I thought the topic was appropriate and writing this helped me work through some of the stuff in my head.

Joe

 

[MikeFerrara]

Am I a wuss for not going for it?
Joe

I don't think so. For a 120 ft wreck dive in the Great Lakes I wear doubles and shoot a little helium in them.