So Cal Diver Dies at Laguna Beach

[Thor]

condolences.

re: coroner's report- drowning. no mention of heart attack.

re: surf entry- Laguna is not Monastery Beach. There is NO reason why an individual keep his or her fins on their hands. It appears as though this is a common practice of the dive club to which these divers belonged. Forgive me, but I missed that day of certification, or is that a specialty I am not aware of. Please advise. And, yes, this is sarcastic rhetoric. And if the surf were ever big enough to somehow justify fins on hands- you should not be diving.

For people that, with mask on, submerge their head and hold their breath while putting their fins on- learn how to put your fins on correctly. You should always have your eye on the surf. And, how about that breath hold thing- you have a snorkel and reg. Either one of those methods can be debated, but they are BOTH better than the alternative.

There have been missing pieces and conflicting stories related to this incident from day one. One thing is true, however, the OC Reg article is a poor one at best. I ask that someone get ALL the facts. I have been privy to some inside information, i.e. cause of death- drowning. And, this information still conflicts with a recent post that "presents" the story.

-befuddled, upset, sad, searching for accountability and truth

 

[Thor]

something else to consider in all of this.

integrated air source/ LPI: I've been on the fence on this, but realistically, why DO you have a secondary? As backup for a problem. A potential panic or crisis. In this situtaion- the diver in need will be frantically yanking your reg out your mouth. This could potentially create panic and a problem for you.

Are risks and potential problems worth eliminating a hose? The divers that Rescue for a living use Octos and use jacket-style BCDs.

They use weight belts in the event that they must ditch there gear AND remain negatively buoyant for a rescue.

Food for thought.

 

[shrwdtech]

Everybody has an opinion, and the right to voice it, but Thor you can't be further off the mark with your entry.

I teach my students as well as teach my instructor canditates to teach their students in the Laguna area to enter the water, bcd inflated, mask on, air source in mouth with fins in hand until passing the break zone where you can comfortably and safely don your fins. Most of the time, the average diver can still either touch the bottom, or can bounce off the bottom and reach the surface at this point.

The main reason for this? I've helped literally hundereds of divers who have tried to use the fins on, shuffle backwards into the water entry method. It's usually one of two things that happens to them. They stand in the churned up water as it sucks their fins right off thier feet, causing them to wander back onshore to search for their gear, or they think they can reach thier fin, bend over to pick it up, taking their eyes off the surf when the next breaker knocks the crap out of them.

Should they know better? Sure. Do they. Probably. But humans being humans, they do it anyway.

Timing the surf and the breakers can be an extremely challenging thing at times. It takes practice to learn to spot the incoming swells. Most folks don't spend a ton of time on that in classes, and the instructors that do, I've often noticed their students not hearing a thing that is being said because all they want to do is get into the water.

But, to get back on track, in all my years as an instructor and course director in S. Cal, I've not had one single student under my supervision have any trouble getting into the water safely and quickly using this method of entry.

Just my 2 cents, and until somebody can give me real compelling reasoning otherwise, or the training agencies make a rule against it, all my students are going to get this training.

 

[Thor]

please refer to page 3 of these posts.

first of all- for anyone around the country and beyond. The dive sites/ coves in Laguna Beach California do NOT present ANY reason why ANY diver cannot put his or her fins on in 4-5 feet of water.

ALL LB spots (for diving) are shorbreak beaches and run 2-4' surf at yellow flag. Meaning-the surf rarely gets that big- they call a swell here 1-2' (faces, not backs). the yellow flag indicates "use caution" even though the size does not get that big. By the way- dive conditions aren't good in heavy swell/ surf anyhow, so this is relatively moot, but must be explained on akajack's account.

So, please do not let akajacks poor and inaccurate depiction of laguna mislead you.

Additionally, akajack, the fact that you personally have "qualified" both steve and darryl doesnt mean anything. I cannot vouch one way or another for them- but for someone who has been diving since 1985 to defend AND preach the "fins on hands" routine- you have exposed yourself

 

[IndigoBlue]

Thor once bubbled...
... to defend AND preach the "fins on hands" routine- you have exposed yourself

The incident was an entry incident.

During an entry incident, you are on the surface. When a diver gets into trouble on the surface, the primary fail-safe defense mechanism is weight belt ditching.

This has nothing to do with whether your fins are on your hands or whether you are carrying them or whether you are wearing them on your feet.

On a flat beach, during an entry, you would not wear your fins on your feet anyway, you would carry your fins. On a steep beach, you have the choice of fins-on or fins-off. It is a legitimate choice. The teaching standards that I am aware of simply state "entries appropriate for the location of diving" and leaves it to the instructor, subject to a jury of his/her peers of course.

"Thor," when someone dies, it is always better not to try to lay blame. The place for that, if anywhere, is in a courtroom between attorneys and judges who are good at laying blame.

In this incident, it appears to me as a distant observer that weight belt ditching was unsuccessful. This appears to me to be the direct cause of the drowning death. Who do you blame for that? Lets not blame anybody.

 

[GQMedic]

" I have been privy to some inside information, i.e. cause of death"

WHO are you?

Identify your source..

You make some pretty inflamitory comments, bub.. Are you just feeling the need to kick this guy or his buddy around? What gives? Where's this coming from? Fill out your profile, I'm really interested in knowing who you are.

Thor once bubbled...
condolences.

re: coroner's report- drowning. no mention of heart attack.

re: surf entry- Laguna is not Monastery Beach. There is NO reason why an individual keep his or her fins on their hands. It appears as though this is a common practice of the dive club to which these divers belonged. Forgive me, but I missed that day of certification, or is that a specialty I am not aware of. Please advise. And, yes, this is sarcastic rhetoric. And if the surf were ever big enough to somehow justify fins on hands- you should not be diving.

For people that, with mask on, submerge their head and hold their breath while putting their fins on- learn how to put your fins on correctly. You should always have your eye on the surf. And, how about that breath hold thing- you have a snorkel and reg. Either one of those methods can be debated, but they are BOTH better than the alternative.

There have been missing pieces and conflicting stories related to this incident from day one. One thing is true, however, the OC Reg article is a poor one at best. I ask that someone get ALL the facts. I have been privy to some inside information, i.e. cause of death- drowning. And, this information still conflicts with a recent post that "presents" the story.

-befuddled, upset, sad, searching for accountability and truth

 

[MikeFerrara]

Fins off...fins on...this whole thing remind me of that poor lady who drowned 5 ft under the water in the kelp with a full tank on her back and two buddies a few months ago. Of course the buddies didn't go looking for her until she didn't show up at the bottom. It helps if teams stay together during descents unless they had the solo kelp diver class.

This incedent also sounds like it just shouldn't have happened. A reg in your mouth and gas in your tank will keep you alive whether yourfins are on or off and whether you on the surface or the bottom. Thats cuz if you can breath you're doing ok whether you like the situation or not.

Jimminy Cricket we don't turn a divers air off in the water when they might need something to breath! A bc inflator hose is a luxury not a necessity. Fins are not a necessity. Gas to breath, now that's a necessity.

Too many divers are not able to solve minor problems in the water. I think some accountability would be a good thing.

BTW, the courts have nothing to do with accountability and I don't think there's a problem yet that they've solved.

 

[IndigoBlue]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
...
Too many divers are not able to solve minor problems in the water. .

That would seem to be the main underlying problem in virtually all fatalities.

 

[DandyDon]

I'm always sorry for these losses - of the divers, his buddies who I know must feel horrible, the loved ones, and so on...

All we can do is try to learn from these incidents, especially from "mistakes," and encourage warning on less experienced and less trained:

(1) "Most divers who die do so by drowning, at or near the surface, with their weights still on."

I really try to keep this a Major Rule for myself and my discussions with others. If problems and panic hit together, drop the weights! No one wants to lose weights and belt or pockets, abort a dive, and pay to replace the loses, but do it anyway.

(2) Turned the air off to try to connect the BC inflator hose, is that right? If so - Bad Mistake! (a) Never turn the air off when in the water, and (b) I've reconnected hoses at depth, but if you cannot connect the hose, inflate the BC orally.


I just reread the previous posts, and I guess these were discussed. I'm going to leave this, though, in case it might clarify the needs for anyone at all.

don

 

[Thor]

glad to stir the pot, because it should be.

If you actually read my posts- there is NO blame. I merely wished to point out and discuss a chosen entry method which is NOT a neccessity in 98% of Laguna Beach.

Shrwdtech: I should not have to tell YOU because you are an instructor, but the "fins on" method is not "put your fins on and walk backwards," either. In 4-5' of water one can easily put their fins on and kick out- and this IS past the surf zone here in LB. And if, for some reason, it's that big- you're probably not divind g right shrwd?

However- those individuals offended are, no doubt, dive club members that do NOT perform pre-dive checks, plans, and enter fins off.

And, by fins off (because I enter fins off as well) I mean- you "paddle" beyond a depth that is reachable by standing vertically. OHHHHHHHHHH. I get it now. This incident happened in 12' of water---------------OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. And- you should not have to be in 12' water here to get past the surf on a day that is truly diveable.

thank you.

I'm done with this ridiculous and ignorant forum