Small Potatoes, but...

[riguerin]

I said I wanted the DIR answer. Several times.

You really don't comprehend asking DIR divers how they prepare for an encounter with "other" divers on a wreck?

I believe the answer has already been given - nothing changes.

 

[rainman_02]

I said I wanted the DIR answer. Several times.

You really don't comprehend asking DIR divers how they prepare for an encounter with "other" divers on a wreck?

My instructor told us a very interesting story about this exact situation. He and his teammate were doing external survey and had no planned penetration. As they came back near the upline, a non-DIR diver frantically pointing into the wreck. "Where's your buddy" was answered with more pointing into the wreck. He and teammate discussed the situation and decided to follow the single diver (and the line leading into the wreck) to attempt a rescue (they set personal limits on the penetration). They followed the diver to the end of the line as he swam past it. At the end of the line, He started to swim past it, stopped and decided not to go further, and both of them swam out of the wreck while the single diver blew them off and continued in.

After their deco, they got back on the boat and a little while later, their "friend" got on the same boat. He was mad because they wouldn't follow him to whatever control room he wanted to show them. He was a solo diver, penetrating without a light, without a line, and likely without appropriate gas reserves.

There's a lot more detail I'm leaving out for simplicity's sake, but the lessons I took from the story were "Be very careful of *anyone* you meet in (or on) the wreck. You don't know their training level, experience, mental state, etc. They may be better or worse, better or worse trained, etc. But they can get you into more trouble than someone you are used to diving with (and have trained with)." and "Always set your personal limits and do your best to make sure they fall well within your training and experience. And don't violate them."


So, my DIR answer to your question is: Do not put yourself or your team at undue risk for the what-if diver. The system is "team, equipment, environment" not "team, equipment, environment, what-if diver."

Although, I suppose the what-if diver does fall under environment...if you have prior knowledge that other divers are on (or in) the wreck, it should be part of your consideration of the risk the dive presents.

Know when to thumb the dive, whether it's on the shore, the boat, at the shot bag, or inside the wreck. And it's not a question.

 

[rainman_02]

And if you say that kind of decision-making process never happens, here's a personal story.

A large group of us went diving at South Monastery. All the scooter teams had entered the water and the last two of us (kicking) had just gotten in and were kicking out around the kelp. There were two or three "other" divers in the water as well. All of a sudden, we heard a loud, "Hey! Hey!" call of someone in possible distress. We looked all around and could three people who could have yelled, but with no signs of distress. Another quick look around didn't show anyone new so we assumed it was someone on the beach.

A few minutes later, a very out of breath "other" diver swam up to the two of us yelling "Hey! Hey!" So, now we knew who it was. We asked if he was OK. He pointed back to the shore (where a diver was sitting in a chair) and said, "Hey! My buddy decided not to dive, can I just buddy with you guys?" Somewhere along the line, he didn't notice that each of us had almost three times as much gas on our backs as he did.

The hair was standing up on the back of my neck. I could see it in my teammate's eyes that his was doing the same. I very politely Rule 1'd him, "Sir, we're planning a dive of 90 minutes or more, I think you'd have a better dive if you caught up to your other friends and dove with them instead." He swam off yelling "Hey! Hey!" at them and dove with them.

After he was down, my teammate and I discussed the situation and why we were both uncomfortable with it. Our problem centered around the massive unknown that was this diver. There was no immediate way to mitigate the additional risk he added to our team...if there had been a chance for a shore briefing or it was at a calmer site like the Breakwater, it might have been a different story. But both of us were satisfied to ask him to dive with someone else.

There was never any need to be condescending, or tell him that we would never dive with him. If he was a guy in my (other) dive club (non-DIR) and I had a chance to talk with him about my gear and philosophies so he understood how I could help him in an emergency (or he help me) then it would have been a different story. I dive with non-DIR divers all the time, but they all know how and why I dive the way I do.

But it simply comes down to "know when and why to thumb the dive."

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

You really don't comprehend asking DIR divers how they prepare for an encounter with "other" divers on a wreck?

The simple answer is "we don't", because there's no reasonable way to do that. You might as well ask how we prepare for an underwater earthquake, or a sudden total collapse of the wreck structure, or a shark attack.

We try to prepare for forseeable situations that we can make reasonable accommodations for - loss of gas, loss of vis, loss of line, loss of lights, etc. We practice and hone our team protocols and situational awareness so that if anything changes about the dive or the plan, then we pick up on it quickly and make adjustments accordingly. We make contingency plans for an early exit if something goes wrong or if the circumstances of the dive are not to our liking. That might include calling the dive or modifying the plan based on diver activity at the site (for example, as a result of reduced vis), but that situation is rare in my experience.

However, there are some things that you simply can't plan for. Being "mugged" (to use your term) by another diver during the dive is one of them. If that happens, then the team works together to render assistance and makes the best of the situation. Obviously, "our" dive is probably over at that point, but that's one of the risks you take when you jump in the water - anything can happen (and frequently does).

In most cases however, having other divers on the site is a non-issue, and no special allowances are made for them.

 

[Kevrumbo]

I've heard that story too from my Wreck Instructor . But Catherine has drawn up a legitimate tough, draconian scenario. What if for example, you were the leading Reel Man on a 2-man team penetration, at your Third's Turn Pressure --and you encounter a Team in the same dire end-stage circumstance as those poor lost souls on the Spiegel Grove? How do you keep order and get everybody out, or worst case how to fend them off --in the ensuing melee???

 

[Cacia]

Rainman 02,
I really enjoyed those anecdotes, very real situations for those of us that do dive in the vicinity of all types of divers.

Kev, thank you for articulating my question far better than I did. It is not that far fetched. People may not want to admit it, but it could happen.
I think at the very least, there should be an accepted protoccol when another team has already penetrated.

 

[rainman_02]

The protocol I was taught was simple: If you see another team's line, don't mess with it. Give serious consideration to penetrating a different part of the wreck. If you have to go in the same way, do your absolute best to lay your line below their line, tied off to other tie points, and always cross over the line.

As to Kev's situation, I think DIR-Atlanta nailed it. We plan for what we can (one major or three minor) and some risks (collapse, etc) are just part of the risks. But, in the case where we had just reached our turn pressure and discovered a CF team (or just part of it), and there were no other major failures, I and my team would make a reasonable effort to rescue them. Again, the most important thing is setting your safety paramaters (search x long, try to help x time, point them in direction of your line and gas-share to the exit and ascend). Since we never plan for more than one major (too complicated requiring way too much redundancy), our third to exit plus our third for emergency plus our rock bottom (two divers from the exit to the surface and all required stops [MDL in this case and take the possible DCS to save a life]) should cover the situation of discovering someone (or several someones) and getting out of the wreck. And worst case? There comes a point where my team and I are more important than the CF that the other divers got themselves into. My team is getting out.


Another anecdote: On a training dive, our masks were removed to simulate siltout (also simulated overhead in 20-30' of water). We three started the line protocol but the reel man didn't tie-down/lock-down the reel. When I got to him I could not convince him (through maskless communication) to trust me and the protocol and let me tie down the reel (he just wanted to hold onto it). After several minutes (my personal limit I set to get the situation moving) of maskless underwater arguing, I told my sightless protocol-less buddy he was "broken." He didn't see it until video review, of course, but I made a quick tie and left him there with the slack and the #3 guy and I left.

Much like a lost line / lost buddy situation, you have to decide how long you're going to take to solve it or just get out.

The instructor debriefed it as an acceptable (but poor) solution, but that more importantly we needed to get our line protocol together and trust it. But, yes, as demonstrated in a training situation, sometimes you have to know when to thumb the dive and how to get safely out of the dive when thumbed.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Yeah, but in this scenario, you've got your 2-man Team coming across a 4-man Team as in the Spiegel Grove Tragedy, all are combined low or OOG: It's potentially no-win, zero-sum outcome with six fatalities. (Catherine darling, now I'm gonna get Nightmares!:11: ). . .

 

[Cacia]

yea, well, just don't get me kicked out of here with your rigorous questions.

I believe the answer has already been given - nothing changes.

what, you don't enjoy the fresh material? I am really enjoying hearing about some tight situations on real dives. We could move it out of DIR if it is making you uneasy. Actually, I started with the question about the regs and the conversation evolved, if the DIR people want it moved, I won't be bothered?

The Spiegal Grove accident has been in the back of my mind.

 

[rainman_02]

Yeah, but in this scenario, you've got your 2-man Team coming across a 4-man Team as in the Spiegel Grove Tragedy, all are combined low or OOG: It's potentially no-win, zero-sum outcome with six fatalities. (Catherine darling, now I'm gonna get Nightmares!:11: ). . .

Oh! That's easy! Turn out your lights and quietly follow your own line out! :11:



In all seriousness, it would be a "triage" scenario. Save the two that are most likely to survive. And you might have to "dissuade" the other two.