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catherine96821:
Yup, Almity, I feel in agreement. Now, I cannot argue it totally intellectually, but: :snip:

Christopher Reeves, very sad. Sad enough to slam thousands of chimpanzees into walls and make them suffer horrendously, personally I have doubts about that. Eating does not seem arrogant, but that seems arrogent, to me. That all the other beings are put here to put an end to human suffering is just a function of our own
delusional grandeur. Where do you draw the line? Logic does not solve this one, you have to feel your way through it and it will be different for everyone.

You posted this while I was in the middle of typing my reply above. I would not have ignored it.

I just deleted a fair bit of this post (and your statement that I'm quoting) because I feel that religion is a great topic not to discuss on Scubaboard. I'm not sure how to address the notion of instincts being spiritual without crossing that line and so I've chosen not to address it at all.

I care deeply for all life, and am terribly against needless suffering. While fishing I do my best to let those I don't intend to eat go without ever lifting them from the water. Those I'll be eating I kill as quickly as possible (a conk or two on the head) so that they don't slowly suffocate over ice (as I see so often).

I hit a deer with my car once. It was horrible. It was mating season in upstate New York and I simply couldn't come to a dead stop for every deer I saw, I was passing hundreds. One froze in my headlights, right at the edge of the road, and jumped in front of my car when I was a few feet away (once the light was out of its eyes I think). It was in shock, obviously dying, and terrified. Its eyes were wild and heart racing like crazy. I sat down and pulled that deer's head into my lap and comforted it; its heartbeat slowed and grew more erratic. I didn't leave until it was dead, and I'm convinced it had a much better death for what I did.

You show me a little kid who can't walk, for whatever reason, and I'll throw a hundred chimpanzees into walls my own self if that's what it'd take to get that little kid up and running around how she should be. That's just all there is to it.

Edited to clarify that the deer mentioned above died within five minutes and I didn't see any point in hastening its death through violence, although I was prepared to if it seemed to be in for a longer period of suffering.
 
neophyte:
Does nature have intentions? If it does, is it best to abide them? Does nature "intend" that we breathe underwater, clothe ourselves, not lose half of our children (and women) in childbirth?
there is.
if nature intended for us to breath underwater, by evolution we will grow lungs. so, i suppose the next arguement is that we have intellegence to make machines to breathe underwater so why not make machines so people can breath and continue their existance... my problem is the quality of life experienced from such a existance.

neophyte:
What I don't understand is what possible benefit there could be to anyone to not doing every damn thing we can to come up with as many cures as possible for every single disease there is.

i fear for a future where people live hundreds of years, where disposable body parts mean that a titanium heart beats for a 138yr old that can no longer remember how to wipe his own backside or the face of his loved ones.

nature intended for us to be born, life and die - end of story. some of us have to go sooner, some later and some not soon enough.

i sat by my fathers side watching him struggle to breathe, seeing in his eyes his pain as he struggled to get enough air in his lungs. he could no longer walk, no longer go to the bathroom on his own and no longer feed himself. then the medical faternity suggested a machine to "help him breathe"... WTFF was my question? to prolong his existance so he can continue to lie there in a broken body. even if they could offer a new set of lungs why? he was old and it was his time. Thankfully he was able to say "no" loud enough to be heard.

which brings me to Chris Reeve and his broken body... im not a right-to-lifer, i acknowledge a embreo (spelling sorry) is not necessary a child to be but hello, where are all these embreos suppose to come from for this miracle research and repairs to those that are only rich enough to afford it - very poor people, end of story. unfortunately hundreds of years of history proves that this will happen. it happens today - want a lung or kidney or a baby and you can afford it, just google and book your surgery.

i acknowledge animals are used to create amazing medicines that save many lives, i acknowledge that animal research has benefited entire generations to live healthier, happier lives but the "all about me" attitude to live forever is jsut not for me.

so leave me to take my green tea, organic foods (meat and veggies) and chinese medicines and i will leave all those that want to take a pill or a shot for every aillment alone, just dont ask me to believe that all medical "achievements" are for the betterment of all. im happy to say that i havent had a presecription issued in about 15yrs and unlike alot of 5yrs out there i dont have a immunity to antibiotics.

PETA brings only the most extreme cases of animal abuse to the public knowledge.. me, im more concerned about the battery chicken farmer in the next suburb with 50,000 hens in a very small space than the latest supermodel wearing a fur coat
 
neophyte:
You show me a little kid who can't walk, for whatever reason, and I'll throw a hundred chimpanzees into walls my own self if that's what it'd take to get that little kid up and running around how she should be. That's just all there is to it.
i wished every child born into this world was healthy, happy and safe but its not our our right to have this and this "i demand and therefore must have what i want" attitude gets on my nerves.

my family was given a child that the medical faternity says is less than perfect and he has been the best blessing to us - he has made our family the force that we are, he is a leader in his community and a inspiration... that is our lot that we are thankful for everyday.

i cant imagine how much poorer would our lives be if a hundred monkeys died to bring us a miracle pill to make him "normal" like the rest of us.
 
almitywife:
i wished every child born into this world was healthy, happy and safe but its not our our right to have this and this "i demand and therefore must have what i want" attitude gets on my nerves.

my family was given a child that the medical faternity says is less than perfect and he has been the best blessing to us - he has made our family the force that we are, he is a leader in his community and a inspiration... that is our lot that we are thankful for everyday.

i cant imagine how much poorer would our lives be if a hundred monkeys died to bring us a miracle pill to make him "normal" like the rest of us.

People demanding non-existant (and often nonsensical) rights based on their own overly inflated sense of entitelement is quite annoying. I'll happily grant you that.

People demanding the right to do with their lives as they will and work hard to further our understanding of the miracle that is life, to develop cures for that which ails us, I find much less annoying.

This conversation could, I fear, swiftly turn way too personal. I'm very glad you and your family are doing so well in the face of what others might consider adversity.

I obviously don't know what your son's condition entails, nor is there any reason for me to. I can still say, without reservation, that I would prefer that he had the choice to take that "normal" pill or not. That's all.

I am in no way in favor of preserving life no matter the cost. I believe that people ought to be treated with the respect and dignity due them as unique individuals. To me, this includes the right to seek out or refuse any and/or all treatments open to them, up to and including death. The more options open to them though, the better.

We only disagree so much, and I'm glad we can do so through such a limited medium, without the rancor into which such a conversation could so easily slide.
 
neophyte:
....We only disagree so much, and I'm glad we can do so through such a limited medium, without the rancor into which such a conversation could so easily slide.
cheers Neo... a nice way to end my friday arvo rantings
 
I have an idea. Let's let convicted career criminals (the violent ones) "volunteer" to submit to medical research to better the lives of other human beings. It would certainly make more sense. We test some medications/procedures on animals and aren't even sure if, even if they're successful, the medication/procedure would be successful on a human being. Kills two birds with one stone--we get more accurate research and the criminals get to repay their debt to society. No PETA issues, either.
 
hahahahah - how about we line up the hardcore PETA people inplace of the animals?? :D

reality suggests this is currently happening in CHina where either test subjects or body parts are easily bought.

problem with it happening here is that the lawyers are the only ones that will get rich from the whole effort
 
Those bad daddies like wardric and wayward son...

yea, pretty out there.
 
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