Simple Question : Defination of STROKE

[Albion]

Clothes do not maketh the man

ElectricZombie once bubbled...

I disagree. It's not about "I'm better than you." at all. "Stroke" is just a label that implies that the diver in question has some problems that need resolving...they know that they are not doing things very effectively and don't care to change. It's just like saying that the guy with his tank mounted upside down is unsafe.


I was diving with a definite stroke the other weekend then.
Backplate and 27# pioneer
Long hose, bungied backup
Jet fins.
- so far so good.

But he had a dirty great canister light which went on every dive, he did not look steamlined in it, what with the long hose and canister lead he looked a mess. Considiring we were diving tropical reefs with a minimum 8m viz what was the need.

I made damm sure i was no where near him for the night dive, last thing i wanted was my night vision screwed up and the fishes scared off.

Thats a stroke IMHO

 

[Whirling Girl]

In rowing, fyi, it's actually:

cox, stroke, 7,6,5,4,3,2,bow.

I kind of disagree with ElectricZombie (sorry dude!) because I think that 'stroke' is a derogatory term. But I have no problem with it. George and the WKPP crew have earned the right to say whatever they want about divers who are not, in their opinion, worthy of diving with them, though it's a bit obnoxious for the rest of us.

I actually really liked the post by cast55:

essentially applying to someone who refuses to implement change despite logical reasoning leading to the conclusion that such change should be effected.

I think this is true about alot of divers, and people in general, and there's nothing wrong with not wanting to dive (or otherwise deal with) someone who demonstrates this attitude. And thank you MHK for kindly providing us with such a cool historical background on the term.

I would only use the word 'stroke' to refer to myself, as in 'dude, I was a total stroke on that dive, my buoyancy sucked six ways during that ascent, sorry, dang.'

Margaret

 

[Jonathan]

there is a lot of debate about whether gaijin is a derogatory term or not. Kind of upsets the locals who think it is when we refer to ourselves as gaijin....

sticks and stones etc

Looks like I almost got the definition right earlier!!

 

[Albion]

Jonathan once bubbled...
there is a lot of debate about whether gaijin is a derogatory term or not. Kind of upsets the locals who think it is when we refer to ourselves as gaijin....

Jonathan, going off topic here, but have you seen the Gaijin kit in Tokyu Hands fancy dress section, it comprises a Red Hair Wig and large plastic nose. Wear that to the next karaoke session your japanese friends organise!!!!!!!
more japanese faux pas
I used to live in Japan, and my family name is 'Barker', this is not a great thing to have, the translation into english will get blocked here.

 

[PhotoTJ]

I posted this in another thread, I feel it bears repeating here...

So, let me get this straight, DIR is great, unless someone finds a flaw, then it's not DIR, because their DIR is not your DIR.

So, the only way to be truly DIR is to dive the way you do. Anyone else's set up won't be DIR, because what is Doing It Right for them would not be DIR for you.

Ergo, everyone who is diving with their gear set up the way they like it is DIR!

Ta-daaah!!!

There are those who'll no doubt say, 'You just don't get it!'

To which I'll respond, no, you don't.

quote:
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Whirling Girl once bubbled...
George and the WKPP crew have earned the right to say whatever they want about divers who are not, in their opinion, worthy of diving with them, though it's a bit obnoxious for the rest of us.
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Earned the right? No, the US Constitution gives them that right, but it also gives me the right to decry them as elitest, obnoxious, wanna-be cult leaders/gurus.

It never ceases to amaze me how, if someone takes the time to write something down, and print it in a reasonable professional manner, a hoard will accept it as gospel. (Look at the diet fads, every year a new one comes out, contradicting the one that was all the rage last year. And people buy it.)

I don't require someone else to validate how I configure my gear. I'm the one diving it, not them. Do I think I'm the Second Coming of Cousteau or Exley? NO. Nor do I think there is nothing I can learn from any diver. If I see you doing something that is neat, whether technique or configuration, I'll ask you about it, and, if it works for me, apply it and/or use it. Someone fresh out of OW may have learned a new trick that I don't know, and I'm happy to learn from him or her.

But don't insult me with a label. (Whether you admit it or not, stroke is used as an insult. Look at the context every time you see it on this board.)

DIR indeed.
The very name reeks of elitism and snobbery at best; a dive cult, in the bad sense of the word, at worst.

I'm a diver. Period. :angry:

After review...
Damn, this is reading like an attack on DIR, it's not intended to be. It's an attack on the mindset that there is no other way to dive, and that any one or two divers has all the answers. Think for yourself, it's refreshing.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

MHK once bubbled...
Accordingly, the original derivation was amongst the team referring to someone who had little skill, but nonetheless wanted to be part of the team.. As word of the success of the WKPP accomplishements spread throughout the cave and general diving population the definition of the term "stroke" became to be generically associated with simply divers with an unsafe attitude..

I can certainly accept the original definition of the word and Thanks MHK for pointing out the roots of the term. However I do have problems with how the term is misused today.

I have seen at least two posts implying that a stroke is someone who refuses to accept logical reasoning and change their configuration accordingly. As someone trained in the ceintific method and who does research, I am familiar with the strenghts and weaknessnes of the four general ways of "knowing".

One of these ways is of course logic (the others being Authority, Intuition, and what has become known as the Scientific Method). But one of the fallacies I see in many of the people that appeal to logic is that they do not understand the problem of the logical paradox - that there may in fact be two or more solutions that are logically correct despite the logical assertion that there is only one true answer. Many DIR advocates fall into this trap and then when they encounter a potentially valid argument that is counter to their belief systems will fall back on the Authority argument to assert that their brand of logic is correct and everyone else's is flawed. (ie, It's right just because DIR, or some really cool diver a lot of people respect says it is.)

Another DIR related post provides the reality based solution to this paradox by admitting that what is considered DIR changes over time as new problems are developed or resolved. This also implies that DIR at least accepts the tenents of the scientific method and agree that one can often learn more from a failed experiment than from a successful one. (of course this ironically requires folks who do it different who can then be considered strokes if they screw it up and front running DIR innnovators if they succeed.) So in my opinon DIR is, at best, a well thought out, but constantly changing, best guess at what works for a broad range of situations rather than the ultimate answer for each and every unique and individual diving situation.

I also find it ironic that if you accept the more contemporary definition of stroke that MHK presents as someone with an unsafe attitude, then you have to accept that there are many DIR wannabees out there who dive and expound on the DIR configuration but who are in fact clearly strokes in both the old and new sense of the word. Diving DIR in essence becomes a way for many crappy divers to become what they perceive as part of the elite and to use a belief in DIR as a crutch for a lack of experience, judgement and maturity. So in that sense perhaps it's better if "stroke" is a term that is left to be applied only within the DIR community by those attmepting to police their own DIR community. And the need to police these indiviudals in the DIR community is great as their willingness to spout a dogmatic and elitist approach in situations where it is not appropriate and the controversy that this ferments takes away from the more valuable contributions DIR has to offer.

I like and apply many of the DIR ideas but am way too eclectic and individualistic in my approach to diving and my ever evolving gear configuration to ever be considered DIR. And that's ok. I don't plan on forcing my philospophy on any DIR divers. If a DIR diver ever attempts to convert me while on my boat, I will kindly return them to the dock and facilitate his or her wish not to dive with non DIR divers. However if they call me a stroke, I probably won't wait until we get back to the dock to boot 'em off my boat.