Should extra training be free?

[jbd]

I have noted some allusions to this in other posts, but Trimixdiver said it straightaway(which prompted me to ask) that in his opinion if a diving student pays for a class and needs extra training then the instructor should provide it at no extra cost.

It does seem clear to most of us that people all learn at different rates ie some learn fast, some in average time and others a little slower.

My question is, why should the instructor give away his time for free to a slower learning person?

I'll contrast this to flying lessons. The FAA says you have to have a minimum of 40 hours flight time to be awarded a pilots certificate. Some make in that time most make in 55 to 60 hours and some take 90 to 100+ hours. As a flight student you pay for every hour that you have that instructor with you.

Just for clarification--in NO way am I bashing trimixdivers opinion.

 

[ScubyDoo]

I agree with Trimixdiver.

Instructors are charged with providing students with the proper training in order to be a safe and competant diver. If a student fails to perform a skill effectively, it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the instructor to provide the additional training required (within reason). If a student is disproportionately demanding of an instructor, to the point where it affects the training of other students, then I think the responsibility should be placed upon the student to request additional tutoring for an additional charge.

Such tutoring should be done at a time that does not delay or otherwise adversely effect the overall class. At no time should an instructor simply sign off on a students skills if those skills were not satisfactorily performed.

Bottom line....Instructors should be upfront and honest with students who arent learning, offer them the option of private tutoring (for an additional cost). If they STILL cant seem to catch on...they should be failed and not receive certification. If a student feels they are owed a refund......I suppose thats a variable that each LDS would have to determine.

 

[Zept]

Isn't this a decision for the instructor/dive shop? Shop A might charge more but offer extra pool sessions at no extra cost, Shop B might charge less for the course, but bill people for extra sessions. Seems to me it's a marketing decision... you can compete on price, or you can give people extra sessions, or you can provide free tea and biscuits... whatever it takes to get the kind of customer you want.


Zept

 

[trymixdiver]

Should the Instructor be paid less for a student that excels? no, you pay for scuba certification. Just like the student who cant get the skills down in alotted confined / OW sessions shouldnt have to pay more.

Andy

Im not saying unlimited pool or ocean work, i agree with Scooby that the extra ?( see below) training be offered within reason, say 2 to 3 pool / ocean sessions.



Extra, for lack of a better word but not implying excessive. The student paid for scuba training. Im not saying make it a private class, have the student start the training over with the next class, maybe not all the way back but at least the pool and OW training.

 

[ScubyDoo]

Originally posted by trymixdiver



Extra, for lack of a better word but not implying excessive. The student paid for scuba training. Im not saying make it a private class, have the student start the training over with the next class, maybe not all the way back but at least the pool and OW training.

I think we're on the same page here. The ony question being when does extra training become excessive? At some point you have to consider your marketing strategies as Zept suggested. It may be a wise decision to take a short term loss and provide additional instruction at no extra charge for some dive shops....for others it may be a really unwise decision.

 

[trymixdiver]

excessive

When your having to do a private class. If your student cant make arangements to be available during the next OW classes pool work / ocean work then they will need to cough up some cash. I dont expect the instructor to go 1 on 1 and according to the students schedule.

if the student cant get the skills down after 2 times through the instructor will have to sugest continuing with private instruction at an extra cost. i wounldnt be giving any refunds, thats for sure.

Andy

it would be clear to me this is not the sport for them and hence no card would or should be issued

 

[Rooster]

Originally posted by trymixdiver
Should the Instructor be paid less for a student that excels? no, you pay for scuba certification.

Sorry, you do not pay for the certification! You pay for the course! Just like taking a class at your local Community Collage or University. You pay to attend the class. It's up to you to meet the requirements to get a passing grade or earn a certification.

Just like the student who cant get the skills down in allotted confined / OW sessions shouldnt have to pay more.

Yes they should, if the instructor has to provide more time, or instruction. Would you expect a collage professor, or music teacher, or flight instructor, to provide free instruction?

That being said, in over 10 years and 800 certifications, I can't remember ever charging anyone for "extra" work. My wife and I have always told our students, if you don't give up, we won't give up. "BUT" I teach scuba because I love it, not because I'm trying to make a living at it. Even though "I" don't charge, I do not feel that any instructor should "HAVE TO" provide any "free" work that was not originally agreed to, ie. What was agreed to be provided during the course of a normal scuba class. If a student pays $400 for a private class, you better believe that they are going to expect, and get, every bit of time and attention that will be required to get certified (within reason). However, if the same person signs up for a $100 scuba course they can't expect the same amount of time and attention. They can't expect a lot of special attention, or a lot of extra time from the instructor. They also cannot "expect" a cert card. Like I said above, you pay for a scuba course, not a certification. This is why I do not teach quickie or weekend only classes, and why I try to keep class size down. I want to have the time to be able to provide that extra amount of instruction, if needed. Not that the quickie or weekend only classes don't have their place. There are plenty of people that can do extremely well in this type of class, but they are not for everyone. This of course is just my opinion, your mileage may, (and probably will), vary

Dive Safe,
Rooster

 

[diverjeffro]

My LDS had two instructors teaching one class one night would be one instructor and the other on another night. But when the pool sessions and o/w sessions started they both were there. So that way if someone was struggling with a skill one instructor would take them off to the side as to not slow up the class. I thought it was better instruction that way. Me and my buddy were getting extra attention because we were part of the local fire company dive unit so they did extra stuff for us.

 

[MikeFerrara]

When we have a student that lags in the pool, and it happens, we have them continue with the next class. If they are ready for open water they usually don't lag there. After owning a shop for two years and teaching several hundred students (not all entry level) we are adding pool time to our course and raising the cost significantly. The trend in our area is 6 hours pool and low prices. Some students can get by with this but IMO its not enough. We currently never do a class with less than nine ours in the pool with some students going longer. We are changing the minimum to twelve. In my experience some need it but all can use it. I have seen too many students in open water who were not ready. The people that won't spend the money or make the time are not the clients I want. The cheaper and faster they get it the harder I work! What is interesting is that the people in the biggest hurry and looking for the lowest price are the ones who need the most work (fact). In fact this is as dependable as the general law of motion.

 

[fredk]

under padi standards a student must be able to master a skill prior to certification, if the student doesn't demonstrate mastery of a skill i don't believe they should be charged extra. at our store we allow any student as much time as required to master the course and allow them free of charge to come out to the pool anytime we are there to work on skills.
there is no use rushing a student or charging them because they may not learn at the same pace as someone else. the name of the game is to turn out good well trained divers get them excited about the sport. that converts to more gear sales more continuing ed.
to many companies in every field are doing themselves a big injustice by trying to make that one big bang, it will come back and bite you in the butt sooner or later.