Should extra training be free?

[WetDane]

This is an interesting discussion - I think it is obvious that people are getting certified who shoudl not be...

Anyway - I think the golden word yet again is "within reason", I think it would be in the interst of an instructor/shop to allow a student some leeway to catch up if they did not manage in the first try - after all, they may come back and by gear - but probably only if you have not been cheap with them...

There is also a note of level - one thing goes for a OW student taking a the first intro to scuba..
If we are talking an advanced and serious diver taking a technical class and needing more work - this person obviously have already laid down a substantial amount of $$$ at the shop.

as an example - take tech1 at GUE - it encompasses a number of classes from other agencies - but packs it all together in a week long training camp.
Hardly anyone passes this class of the get go - so what do they do? well, for one thing people go out and dive - the instructor has provided the student with very specific information regarding what skills needs work before s/he can pass the class. It is now possible for the student to not only practise oh his/her own, but then also to continue and participate in the next class doing those days over where additional training is needed.

Needless to say - a week long class is pricey - but surprisingly cheap when compared to otehr agencies - However, at GUE - you pay once and you can come back for the next class and listen in.

I think that approach works very well. and I know that we all drop a large sum of money on a lot of equipment at this point in our lives...

Big T

 

[ScubyDoo]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
What is interesting is that the people in the biggest hurry and looking for the lowest price are the ones who need the most work (fact). In fact this is as dependable as the general law of motion.

Id agree with the part about people in the biggest hurry, but I disagree totally with the idea that people looking for the lowest price need the most work.

What does being frugal have to do with ones ability to learn?

 

[neil]

An instructor can give their time away if they want, but you have to make sure the student/customer understands up front what your policy is. If you say nothing and then spring make-up fees on them, they're going to be pissed, and rightfully so.
My explanation is this:
"The course is xxxx hours and days long.
You will be expected to meet the requirements in this time. Here are the requirements. If you are having any problems, I will, because I'm a cool guy, help you before and after regular classes for short sessions. If you need any extended extra time with me, I will charge a reasonable fee for my time. Here's the make-up fee schedule."
I think that's a fair policy and I've never had any complaints. You would expect the same of instructors in other fields.

Neil

 

[MikeFerrara]

ScubyDoo,
I simply stated what I see day in and day out. How can you disagree? I know what I see. Keep in mind I am not speaking of people seeking the best value. I am speaking of people who want to obtain a card (so they can go on vacation) at the lowest possible price (period), and they come through the door all the time. Of course, I am speaking in generalities so my statement can't apply to everyone. The ones willing to invest the least money and time also seem to be the ones who invest the least effort. Also, they seem to assign less value to my time and expect me to do it all for them. It has nothing to do with their ability to learn. It has to do with being willing to trade effort for knowlege. They also seem to think they get a card just for showing up. I could tell story after story.

 

[budgy]

When one man is compelled to do something for nothing, its not free its slavery.

 

[WetDane]

perhaps this all correlates to the level of effort people have come to expect - how hard is it to get a drivers license around here?

What I have trouble digesting though is how ANYONE can have problem learning the skills requested to pass a dive class - the classes are already dummied down to a very low level - it's not like anyone has to be a rocket scientist to do this... It would be different if one was to talk about technical classes like I did before where there are significant levels of math and theory involved - but OW - it just blows my mind.

Big T

 

[Diversauras]

When I was teaching activly and a student needed additional work, to a point it was included in the price, UNTIL it became excessive.

We made the determination that to sit through an additional course was within the realm of reality, but the actual costs incured fell to the student. What this amounted to was that the student paid his own admission if it was one of the inland sites we went to, or the cost of the boat trip if it was an ocean dive.

The third time through was at the going rate.

I think this was reasonable and did not unduly tax the class. There would also have to be a caveat that if the class were full, to the point the instructor was at the maximum number of students, then it was not open to repeat students.

From an instructor's point of view this is an area of which one should be cautious. Sometimes (rarley) students get so attached to an instructor that they won't go out on their own (with an approprite dive buddy of course).

I have to agree that the student signs up to learn to dive, and within reason, this is the mandate for the instructor. I think this is a bit different than a normal college course. I have made the comparison before, with learning to fly, and I think this is still valid. Not every student solos at the same place in the course, some are ready sooner. Diving is the same.

Greg

 

[carlislere]

Typically, in my area, if a student is having difficulty with some part of a course, speaking entry level course, and they do not complete the course, then they will continue with the next entry level course. The first instructor may already have a different course/trip scheduled. This also gives the student a fresh instructor to work with.

 

[wvrotorhead]

Hey guys! As a current open water student, as well as one of those who has had difficulty with skills, I see things from both sides of the coin.

First, I realize that the open water course is very rushed, and we are not all natural born Jacques Cousteaus. This leads to some of us who don't grasp even the basics on the first try. Should my instructor be REQUIRED to provide me with the extra time necessary to master the skills I am deficient in? Absolutly not!

HOWEVER, based on the flip side of the argument: As a consumer, I want the most bang (bubbles???) I can get for my buck. That is to say I want to gain all the skills I can from my class rather than just obtain my certification. If that means that my instructor or DM spend a few minutes with me before or after class then YES, I most definitely expect that. After all, I'm not just a student, I am a customer and will be treated as such. If those few extra minutes prove to be insufficient to get me blowing those damned infernal bubbles necessary to clear my mask, or whatever other skill I prove to be deficient in, then I would gladly pay extra for private instruction.

I think most students, whether they be PADI Open Water students, or student helicopter pilots learning to hover over those damn traffic cones(been there done that) genuinely want to learn whatever skill their instructor is trying to impart to them. Sure, there are exceptions, but the vast majority will learn those skills if they are demonstrated in the proper manner and ADEQUATE TIME is given to their mastery.

Should extra training be free? Within reason absolutely. Not however, if that means giving the student a whole class or a whole confined water session.

Thanks for reading guys, I hope I don't have too much Corona-narcosis right now to be at least semi lucid - I think it's the lime

Billy

 

[Uncle Pug]

Mike hit the nail on the head (not unsurprisingly)....
Cheapskates are only quick studies at bargain hunting.

You want the best?
Buy the best instruction...
Give it your best effort....
You will probably get extra instruction at no cost.

You want cheap?
Take the cheapest deal....
Give it your least effort....
And then pay more for remedial instruction.