Sexism?

[Diver0001]

What is sexism and how does it relate to scuba diving? Women are typically smaller and considerably weaker and are therefore at a disadvantage when dealing with heavy gear. In many other situations, they are not at a disadvantage.. but scuba diving is not one of them. Shall we act like this is not the case?

Speaking of smaller and weaker ..... Sexism is something more.

I'm a 47 year old technical diver. My gear is heavy and I'm well past my prime. My regular buddy (a man) is a bit more than 10 years younger than me. He's physically bigger, he's stronger, he's faster, and he's better than I am in many ways. He's bald but I'm grey but if you put us in a line-up and asked women to choose then 9999 out of 10,000 would choose him. (and the one who didn't would be the autistic slobbering puzzle addicted blind girl who only showers once a week) Even my wife has said that he's hot and better looking than I am.

But not once.... EVER has he offered to lift, move or manipulate my gear in any way. There are days that I wish he would but he would never "insult" me like that. The day may come but as long as I'm able to do it myself, it will not.

Sexism is this: If I were a woman I'm pretty sure he would bring it up once a week.

R..

 

[drrich2]

But not once.... EVER has he offered to lift, move or manipulate my gear in any way. There are days that I wish he would but he would never "insult" me like that.

It seems to me men tend to be more aware of hierarchy/position & 'respect' - some like competition, and even those who don't wouldn't want to be seen as less/weaker. You don't have to be an alpha male to not want to be 'upstaged.'

If a big, strong man dives with 2 buddies separately, one male, one female, both smaller & weaker than he with heavy gear, and he knows the man would be perceive himself as being condescended to, but the woman would not & would appreciate the help, is it sexist to offer to help the woman who appreciates it and not the man offended by it?

Or perhaps both have been treated with respect and kindness?

Richard.

 

[redacted]

Sexism is this: If I were a woman I'm pretty sure he would bring it up once a week.

R..

I'm a bit old for this activity also; so I'm pretty sure you are talking tanks and gear.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Speaking of smaller and weaker ..... Sexism is something more.

I'm a 47 year old technical diver. My gear is heavy and I'm well past my prime. My regular buddy (a man) is a bit more than 10 years younger than me. He's physically bigger, he's stronger, he's faster, and he's better than I am in many ways. He's bald but I'm grey but if you put us in a line-up and asked women to choose then 9999 out of 10,000 would choose him. (and the one who didn't would be the autistic slobbering puzzle addicted blind girl who only showers once a week) Even my wife has said that he's hot and better looking than I am.

But not once.... EVER has he offered to lift, move or manipulate my gear in any way. There are days that I wish he would but he would never "insult" me like that. The day may come but as long as I'm able to do it myself, it will not.

Sexism is this: If I were a woman I'm pretty sure he would bring it up once a week.

R..

I'm old and fat and not very flexible. I appreciate any help I can get with my gear. I CAN do (most of it) by myself, but it is quicker, easier, and safer to have someone steady the tank while it is teetering on the gunwale. I'm much more into teamwork when getting a diver ready. The quicker I can get the other guys (gals) dressed and in the water, the sooner I can dive. Most of the people who have been diving forever and are secure in their diving activities are not going to be insulted when someone lends a hand.

I think of it as "diver support" rather than remedial help for the incompetent. Kinda funny that diving is presumed to be a buddy activity, but people seem to want to do it all by themselves?

 

[Octopusprime]

Hello Chris and Tom!

Yours are legitimate questions and no offense taken
I always welcome politeness and declining a polite offer is done equally politely. Difficulty is when I feel I am being treated as less capable. Comments like "here little girl, let me help you with your doubles" is not taken as a polite offer. Perhaps it was meant as such but I can't help feel that I am being treated as less capable when dealing with my own gear when obviously I am not. Does that make sense?

I can can see that and it is very difficult reading tone. But we also need to remember that often when diving we are diving with people from all over the world and some phrases are regional or generational. My grandpa called everyone lad. If someone I didn't know called me lad I would take it as an insult. It is difficult to read context and tone.

As for sexism in general, is a catigory of discrimination. Discrimination is applying a trait to the entire subset of population as a general. Like all woman are bad divers or all woman divers need a man to lead the dive. Etc. (Not saying I agree with any of those statements )

honestly I not ever remember someone say woman can dive, or women can not teach, or women can not do Tec.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Discrimination is applying a trait to the entire subset of population as a general.

I understand that someone who speaks of caitgories might prefer to gloss over the whole 'words have meaning' thing, but that's not definition of discrimination--it's stereotyping.

Discrimination is simply treating someone (or something, for that matter) differently. It's not per se bad: for example, I've been known to discriminate against people who drunkenly punch me in the face in a bar bathroom by beating them senseless against the tile wall, while never considering doing any such thing to people who don't drunkenly punch me in the face...and that seems fair.

As Diver0001 pointed out, the issue is whether you're treating one otherwise-similarly situated person differently than another simply because the one happens to have boobs while the other has moobs.

 

[descent]

It seems to me men tend to be more aware of hierarchy/position & 'respect' - some like competition, and even those who don't wouldn't want to be seen as less/weaker. ...

Hierarchy can really matter in an emergency.

Some of the biggest CFs I have ever seen started with a group of peers who were close together in ability and had not worked together under a clearly established hierarchy for long enough to click as a team.

When an emergency developed, more than a few times the first conversations were bickering about authority or debate over the correct course of action.

The "losers" in these exchanges were often the smallest, physically. The deepest voice might not have always carried the day, but the highest pitched voice never did. This is the kind of little-s sexism that comes out of sexual dimorphism and the masculine drive to be the alpha.

Big-s sexism would be when two responders speak at the same time, and the guy says to the girl, "Hush. Let the men handle this."

 

[Dhboner]

I have never encountered a situation in diving where gender was an issue worthy of discussion. The women I dive with can manage their equipment and their environment and seamlessly blend into the team. Until Jill proposed this discussion I had never thought of "gender" as a potential discussion point in diving. I am more concerned about diving with anyone (regardless of gender) who has let their fitness or training lapse than whether their nursery was pink or blue. I have never felt gender bias but I do confess to "fitness" bias...and I make no apologies for that particular point of discrimination.

 

[Iralub]

A major diving publication has asked me to write an article on sexism in diving. I'm curious how that makes people feel? Do we still have an issue with sexism in our industry? Are you sick of hearing women complain about unequal treatment? Are you tired of men saying there is no problem? Are there some reasonable suggestions to help women feel validated and men feel informed?
If there are any men or women that want to share any private anecdotes, please email me at JillHeinerth@mac.com.
Thanks!
Jill

That's a very interesting topic. I think sexism in diving industry would depend to a substantial degree of the nature of participation of the women in the industry - are we talking sexism in diving recreationally or women involved professionally, such as instructors or DMs. The existence, expression and consequences of sexism may well be very different.

As a fairly new, purely recreational diver, I cannot say that I myself have been a victim of sexism. Yes, I am more likely on average to be offered help with gear and the like, but it is likely because I'm small and not as physically powerful as many others, including many women. It may be that I'm more likely to be offered help than a male in this position, but if that is sexism, the consequences are insignificant. If I don't need help, I politely tell the person trying to help me and that's that. More often, if someone wants to help me move the tank that I can barely lift, I'll thank them for the help, whatever their gender.

It's this sort of sexism that this thread seems to have focused on and I'm not sure that it has profound consequences.

But what about women working in the diving profession. Do women DMs or instructors get treated differently by customers? Do customers tend to "trust" male instructors more or perceive them as, by default more competent because they are bigger/stronger etc. Are dive ops more likely to hire male instructors, give female and male instructors different courses to teach depending on difficulty, have male guides take the more difficult dives? Or give male and female instructors different non-dive activities.

One example I've encountered of differential treatment was on a (very excellent) liveaboard trip where all male instructors were "instructors" and all female instructors were "instructors/hostesses" and provided hostess services like tidying cabins as well as taking dives. A young male customer on the trip pointed to it as an instance of sexism and I admire his perceptiveness.

Just a personal view, but I think these sorts of issues are probably more important in terms of consequences than opening doors and helping out with gear. YMMV

 

[descent]

[the ... horror!]

Ugh! Oh, quick, to the medicine cabinet!