Sexism?

[Diver0001]

Well... it's a big planet and it's hard to get to know everyone personally. All you can really know about people on the internet is what they say about themselves.

But I'll take your word for it that she's cool. Just getting alarm bells, that's all. I'll be the last person to insist that my observations and intuitions are infallible.

.... pretty good most of the time.... but not infallible.

R..

 

[Jill Heinerth]

Jill,

I for one admit to being unclear on the exact definition of sexism. It might be helpful to define sexism and how it relates or differs from gender discrimination.

Does it include, as some have suggested, politeness if shown to the opposite gender only?

Great question... I was actually trying not to lead the discussion to hear what everyone thought it might entail. Is it discrimination? Is there different treatment of women on charters? Is there different treatment of women as consumers? How about sexual harassment? I think it all folds into the question and I know some people will feel that the diving industry simply reflects society at large.

In my own experience, I have a lot of stories of hitting glass ceilings and having to work really hard to punch through. I have also felt that on occasion I have received some preferential treatment because of the uniqueness of having a woman on the team. It is all very intriguing and I hope I can encapsulate everyone's thoughts and experiences into something substantive.

Right now, I have to step away from the conversation for a week or so. I am heading out the door to Cuba to do a Nat Geo Project in the caves! I'll be off the net and out of contact for a bit.

Thanks everyone for contributing to the conversation!

 

[tursiops]

Well... it's a big planet and it's hard to get to know everyone personally. All you can really know about people on the internet is what they say about themselves.

But I'll take your word for it that she's cool. Just getting alarm bells, that's all. I'll be the last person to insist that my observations and intuitions are infallible.

.... pretty good most of the time.... but not infallible.

R..

Fair enough. My guess is that if a guy had written that stuff about himself, changing all the genders around, you (or others, if not you) might not have even noticed. And therein lies the problem.

 

[Diver0001]

Oh wait, this is just to good. You acknowledge Sexism exists in general society, and since it does it is ok for it to exist in diving, and therefore not an issue at all?

There is a logic to this statement. Let's change the words to explain it.

If you say "there is air in the McDonalds" then McDonalds did not cause that air to be in their restaurant. To start by asking the question "is there STILL air in the McDonalds" then you are begging the question. Google that if you don't know exactly what I mean by it. By formulating the question like that it's assuming that McDonalds caused air to be in their restaurant, at which point you can argue how terrible McDonalds is for causing that air to be there.

Same thing is going on here. I'm not saying at all that there is no sexism in diving. To do so would be like claiming that there is no air in the McDonalds in the above example. What I'm suggesting is that the sexism among the population of divers isn't any DIFFERENT than the sexism present in the ambient culture generally.

Jill started by begging the question so I pointed out the logical fallacy in that. If she had asked the question if diving culture suffered from "more" or "less" or some other "nuance" of sexism that was different than we see in other areas of the ambient culture then it's different than starting out by saying "do we STILL" have sexism.

My point being that while diving STILL has sexism insofar that a diving sub-culture is part of a larger context, that the "amount" or "degree" or "type" of that sexism doesn't differ significantly.

I hope that helps to make my point clearer

R..

---------- Post added February 12th, 2015 at 10:49 PM ----------

Fair enough. My guess is that if a guy had written that stuff about himself, changing all the genders around, you (or others, if not you) might not have even noticed. And therein lies the problem.

Oh not at all. Pretentious guys rub me the wrong way too.

R..

 

[tomfcrist]

Well... it's a big planet and it's hard to get to know everyone personally. All you can really know about people on the internet is what they say about themselves.

But I'll take your word for it that she's cool. Just getting alarm bells, that's all. I'll be the last person to insist that my observations and intuitions are infallible.

.... pretty good most of the time.... but not infallible.

R..

Fair enough. My guess is that if a guy had written that stuff about himself, changing all the genders around, you (or others, if not you) might not have even noticed. And therein lies the problem.

Lmao...you think we can't tell when a man is full of himself?

Once again, it's all perception. Your perception of reality is likely to be far different than mine based off of life experiences alone. What you think sounds like a list of accomplishments may sound to me like a pretentious person bragging on themselves. Potato potatoe

 

[Diver0001]

Great question... I was actually trying not to lead the discussion to hear what everyone thought it might entail. Is it discrimination? Is there different treatment of women on charters? Is there different treatment of women as consumers? How about sexual harassment? I think it all folds into the question and I know some people will feel that the diving industry simply reflects society at large.

I think by using the words "will feel" hits the nail right on the head. I think if you're going to write a credible article about it you're going to need some academic back up. My advice would be to look for a professor of cultural anthropology (after all it's a global sport) or gender studies or something to that effect as a starting point and see if there is any theoretical or scientific evidence to suggest that scuba diving is inherently different than any other mixed gender activity..... or at the very least to get help postulating a credible theory that you write to.

Otherwise it will be just be like an opinion column in a newspaper, most of which are not with worth their weight in ink.

R..

 

[dreamdive]

Correct....It is usually a socially learned behavior. Offense is not generally intended, but is sometimes taken.

My question to Dreamdive is this....Do you feel the divers are legitimately discriminating against you? or are they merely following the social norm of treating women differently than men?
To me...Discrimination is saying "you cant dive with me because you are incapable of assisting me in an emergency"...whereas socially accepted politeness is asking you if you would like my seat in the cabin of the boat.

Hello Chris and Tom!

Yours are legitimate questions and no offense taken
I always welcome politeness and declining a polite offer is done equally politely. Difficulty is when I feel I am being treated as less capable. Comments like "here little girl, let me help you with your doubles" is not taken as a polite offer. Perhaps it was meant as such but I can't help feel that I am being treated as less capable when dealing with my own gear when obviously I am not. Does that make sense?

 

[tomfcrist]

Understandable...

 

[Diver0001]

Hello Chris and Tom!

Yours are legitimate questions and no offense taken
I always welcome politeness and declining a polite offer is done equally politely. Difficulty is when I feel I am being treated as less capable. Comments like "here little girl, let me help you with your doubles" is not taken as a polite offer. Perhaps it was meant as such but I can't help feel that I am being treated as less capable when dealing with my own gear when obviously I am not. Does that make sense?

I can believe that women in diving experience that kind of patronizing. Maybe diving *is* different in this particular way because the gear is heavy and perhaps moreso than in other activities guys may assume that you need help.

I'm curious. In a different context.....say if you were changing a flat tire on your car on the side of a busy freeway and someone stopped to help you, would you still possibly experience that kind of patronizing? Is what you experience in diving happening more often than when you engage in other mixed gender activities? Is it "pushier" for lack of a better term? Does it somehow have a different tone or attitude? Is there something about diving in particular that makes it seem any "worse than normal" (which is a horrible way to put it so I hope you understand that in the spirit in which it was written).

R..

 

[lowviz]

Well... it's a big planet and it's hard to get to know everyone personally. ...

Maybe you should try a bit harder. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ers-past-present-post6956745.html#post6956745