Seven foot hose for single cylinder

[tbone1004]

SM configuration = completely different subject

forgot to untuck his hose from the can light = skill problem (should not be fixed with gear changes)

I know it's a different subject, but I was saying, in that situation, because my buddy had lost control of his mind, and was extremely task loaded I was unable to get sufficient distance from him to traverse safely and that could have caused big problems if it had taken us longer to get out than in. I'm not saying it should be fixed with gear changes, just that if the reg was bungeed I could have pulled it out on my own.
Only similarity reference to SM was the irritation with restuffing hoses on drills.

Either way I think the only "standard" should be a minimum of 7' hose in overhead environments and however you decide to stuff it is up to you and should be comfortable for you. Make sure there is a full gear review before any dives with new buddies and all should go fine. In OW it's up to you. If you're comfortable with a long hose and want to keep one because you are too lazy to change the hose for these dives, or just prefer it, that's fine. I do find it irritating to deal with a DIR long hose on a boat situation and there are a lot of "herd" divers as mentioned before that have no business diving with a long hose because they can't control it both in and out of the water. Either work up with training or stay off the boats with them until you're comfortable with it and can control it properly. And for 40 ft reef dives they really are not necessary IMHO. To each his own, I don't mind swapping hoses out before going diving as with sidemount I have to switch a lot of stuff around if I have to go backmount.
To some extent I understand having the muscle memory for one setup, but here's the catch. I'm a professional musician, I do broadway pit work and part of my job is as a sax player, convince the audience I'm a clarinet and flute player when I have to double. I have had to develop a completely new set of muscle memory for these instruments. They are similar but each have some very different things about them, so you can't think of a clarinet as 'a sax with these difference' but rather as a completely new instrument. As soon as a clarinet is in my hands I think like a clarinet player, same with flute and sax. I don't understand why you can't have a cave/overhead/technical setup, while still having a OW setup and have "muscle memory" problems. If you can't think clear enough to remember where something is you have issues. Deploying a 40" hose under the arm is no different than deploying a 7' hose as far as muscle memory is concerned, and I have yet to be in a situation in open water where I can't swim with my buddies to the anchor line. The "other diver" from another buddy team issue is bs imho because if someone who I don't know just came at me and stole my primarily I sure as hell don't want him kicking as hard as he can somewhere without my being able sock him for being a moron and with a 7' hose and a panicked open water diver a lot of bad things can happen. I want them within arms reach so I can control their buoyancy for them if I have to. Clearly this is not agreed upon by most of you, and I don't really care, but for most purely recreational divers and 7' hose is overkill.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Agree with TSandM.

The routing and deployment check is not a con; it is matter of pre-dive diligence that you would have to perform with your octo or air 2 in other ways.

Even a captured long hose is better than the other options because it is at least as long as the alternatives and you KNOW that the reg is working because you just breathed it.

True ... ever try breathing off an octo that someone captured under their waistband?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lobzilla]

I know it's a different subject, but I was saying, in that situation, because my buddy had lost control of his mind, and was extremely task loaded I was unable to get sufficient distance from him to traverse safely and that could have caused big problems if it had taken us longer to get out than in. I'm not saying it should be fixed with gear changes, just that if the reg was bungeed I could have pulled it out on my own.
Only similarity reference to SM was the irritation with restuffing hoses on drills.

Either way I think the only "standard" should be a minimum of 7' hose in overhead environments and however you decide to stuff it is up to you and should be comfortable for you. Make sure there is a full gear review before any dives with new buddies and all should go fine. In OW it's up to you. If you're comfortable with a long hose and want to keep one because you are too lazy to change the hose for these dives, or just prefer it, that's fine. I do find it irritating to deal with a DIR long hose on a boat situation and there are a lot of "herd" divers as mentioned before that have no business diving with a long hose because they can't control it both in and out of the water. Either work up with training or stay off the boats with them until you're comfortable with it and can control it properly. And for 40 ft reef dives they really are not necessary IMHO. To each his own, I don't mind swapping hoses out before going diving as with sidemount I have to switch a lot of stuff around if I have to go backmount.
To some extent I understand having the muscle memory for one setup, but here's the catch. I'm a professional musician, I do broadway pit work and part of my job is as a sax player, convince the audience I'm a clarinet and flute player when I have to double. I have had to develop a completely new set of muscle memory for these instruments. They are similar but each have some very different things about them, so you can't think of a clarinet as 'a sax with these difference' but rather as a completely new instrument. As soon as a clarinet is in my hands I think like a clarinet player, same with flute and sax. I don't understand why you can't have a cave/overhead/technical setup, while still having a OW setup and have "muscle memory" problems. If you can't think clear enough to remember where something is you have issues. Deploying a 40" hose under the arm is no different than deploying a 7' hose as far as muscle memory is concerned, and I have yet to be in a situation in open water where I can't swim with my buddies to the anchor line. The "other diver" from another buddy team issue is bs imho because if someone who I don't know just came at me and stole my primarily I sure as hell don't want him kicking as hard as he can somewhere without my being able sock him for being a moron and with a 7' hose and a panicked open water diver a lot of bad things can happen. I want them within arms reach so I can control their buoyancy for them if I have to. Clearly this is not agreed upon by most of you, and I don't really care, but for most purely recreational divers and 7' hose is overkill.

Oh my, now we opened the worm can.

Let's first get the "herd" mentality out of the way. I live over 3600 miles from my family, type here in the third language I learned, and have been fired 4 times in my life for having had a different (and ultimately better) opinion about my destiny. If you want to get woolly with me, think "black sheep".

I use the long hose because I have not found anything that is more functional for the intended purpose (saving someone else's rear end) under water. I tried air2 and octo and am somewhat ashamed that I even went there.

Is there a free lunch in life? No. Should we expect that the long hose has no disadvantages anywhere? No.

What counts is that under water and when it matters most, that long hose is the king. Or do you want to breathe a banged up octo that was dragged through the sand when you are gasping for air? No, you want my nice G250 and you will get it stuck in your face as fast as you expect it. Then, we are looking at each other and try to find out whether we are both OK with the situation and what we are going to do. Depending on that, you may need and get more hose or not.

Thanks to your story from the cave I realize that I have to discuss with my teammates how we communicate on these issues if we cannot see each other but that has nothing to do with the hose itself; that is a team communication issue.

As I tried to convey in this post above, it is exactly the open water diver in loose formation with a single tank that needs the long hose most.

If you personally do not like the long hose or a certain length or a certain storage method, that is your choice. But that does NOT mean that what you do not like does not have very tangible value for people who are misguided by the convoluted ideas of scuba equipment marketing. Unfortunately, newer OW divers do not even comprehend the risk that they are taking and to discourage them from trying more practical and more robust solutions with the "herd" scare is not very responsible.

Again, if you have concluded for yourself that there is a better solution for YOU, give other folks the chance to try and maybe or maybe not arrive at the same conclusion.

I have no problem wearing the long hose in a pool. It works the same way there as it does in a cave, wreck, or OW. And when it comes down to your safety or the safety of your teammate(s) would you rather not 'overkill' than 'underkill'?

 

[TSandM]

Suggestion for taming the long hose during the nose breathing part of the dive -- curl it up into a small coil, then pass the reg through the center of the coil and clip off to the harness. Keeps it small and neat.

 

[Lobzilla]

Suggestion for taming the long hose during the nose breathing part of the dive -- curl it up into a small coil, then pass the reg through the center of the coil and clip off to the harness. Keeps it small and neat.

Thanks, that's what I am doing; was just wondering whether there are other solutions.

 

[tbone1004]

I never said they're bad. For experienced divers that know what they're doing then it is truly personal preference. What is not right, and the herding problem, is when recreational divers say "oh this is what the tech divers are doing therefor I need to do that" and have their long hoses loose and uncontrolled which is quite easy. Are backplates better than jackets, who cares, do they need matching high performance 2nd stages, who cares, is donating your primary safer? That all depends on the diver and the situation. Having a long hose and not being able to control it is bad and it's threads like this that have herd type divers running out and getting 7' hoses and having no idea what they're doing with them.
That's dangerous because I've seen divers get their long hoses caught on boats, and have the reg pull out of the hose, seen them get the loops caught in wrecks when they didn't have them pulled tight enough and have them get utterly confused and freak out.
Did I mention anything about normal recreational hose configuration with a hose getting drug? My donating hose is always in my mouth, and there is always the octo on my neck. Just a 40" one with an angle adapter not a 7' hose. If you want to dive one, have a mentor or instructor teach you how and explain why they use one.
Yes I would rather have overkill than underkill, but even if I had a neck ring failure and was diving in the tropics, I wouldn't want my buddy giving me a long hose if I didn't know him. If he freaks out because there is a bunch of air coming out from behind my head and starts fumbling with a long hose that's more time I'm without air. If it gets caught on something then I'm screwed. We practice kicking around with donated hoses in the pool all the time. with 40" ones the OOA diver is on the right and you're close. It's not comfortable and you're not going to break any land speed records, but it suffices. With 90*'s you get a bit farther away and can kick somewhat comfortably and for vertical ascents it means he can't get away from you. You're holding onto his BC anyway incase he can't function well enough to control his own buoyancy and to keep him calm.
Preferences I guess, but with the bad experiences I've had with rec divers and uncontrolled long hoses I have minimal desire to see them become the standard. GUE teaches them day 1, that's fine, they have good instructors teaching them how to work with them, we teach the same thing and our divers know how to deal with them. I just don't see how it's practical for everyday diving on reefs... Agree to disagree. Not bashing anyones personal decisions, but to me, it's the same as recreational divers switching to doubles and not knowing how to do a valve drill properly and do proper gas management.

 

[Lobzilla]

I never said they're bad. For experienced divers that know what they're doing then it is truly personal preference. What is not right, and the herding problem, is when recreational divers say "oh this is what the tech divers are doing therefor I need to do that" and have their long hoses loose and uncontrolled which is quite easy. Are backplates better than jackets, who cares, do they need matching high performance 2nd stages, who cares, is donating your primary safer? That all depends on the diver and the situation. Having a long hose and not being able to control it is bad and it's threads like this that have herd type divers running out and getting 7' hoses and having no idea what they're doing with them.
That's dangerous because I've seen divers get their long hoses caught on boats, and have the reg pull out of the hose, seen them get the loops caught in wrecks when they didn't have them pulled tight enough and have them get utterly confused and freak out.
Did I mention anything about normal recreational hose configuration with a hose getting drug? My donating hose is always in my mouth, and there is always the octo on my neck. Just a 40" one with an angle adapter not a 7' hose. If you want to dive one, have a mentor or instructor teach you how and explain why they use one.
Yes I would rather have overkill than underkill, but even if I had a neck ring failure and was diving in the tropics, I wouldn't want my buddy giving me a long hose if I didn't know him. If he freaks out because there is a bunch of air coming out from behind my head and starts fumbling with a long hose that's more time I'm without air. If it gets caught on something then I'm screwed. We practice kicking around with donated hoses in the pool all the time. with 40" ones the OOA diver is on the right and you're close. It's not comfortable and you're not going to break any land speed records, but it suffices. With 90*'s you get a bit farther away and can kick somewhat comfortably and for vertical ascents it means he can't get away from you. You're holding onto his BC anyway incase he can't function well enough to control his own buoyancy and to keep him calm.
Preferences I guess, but with the bad experiences I've had with rec divers and uncontrolled long hoses I have minimal desire to see them become the standard. GUE teaches them day 1, that's fine, they have good instructors teaching them how to work with them, we teach the same thing and our divers know how to deal with them. I just don't see how it's practical for everyday diving on reefs... Agree to disagree. Not bashing anyones personal decisions, but to me, it's the same as recreational divers switching to doubles and not knowing how to do a valve drill properly and do proper gas management.

OK, we can agree that all these choices are tools and tools need to be mastered and the purpose they serve needs to be understood to get a positive outcome.

bad tool + bad skills = really bad outcome
good tool + bad skills = bad outcome
bad tool + good skills = possibly good outcome
good tool + good skills = excellent outcome

The problem I see with the 40"er is that it is biased. OOG diver needs to be on your right. Lets take the pic in post 73 as an example; the guy with the grey arms would be at a serious disadvantage without the long hoses. Do you want to be that guy?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Let's first get the "herd" mentality out of the way.

... every time I've ever seen a "herd" underwater, they were all dangling octopuses ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rainer]

The problem I see with the 40"er is that it is biased. OOG diver needs to be on your right. Lets take the pic in post 73 as an example; the guy with the grey arms would be at a serious disadvantage without the long hoses. Do you want to be that guy?

Really depends on the situation.

While I personally would prefer to have the extra working room of a 7' hose, ascending (as opposed to swimming around) on a 40" hose *in open water* just isn't that big a deal.

For "recreational" dives (where direct ascents are possible) I'm much more of a champion for "donate the primary, go to the bungeed secondary" than for dictating the length of the primary hose (be it 40" routed under the arm, 5' routed across the chest, or 7' routed down and then across the chest). To me, the crucial safety aspect comes from how donation is handled, not the specific length of the hose.

Once you "need" the possibility of swimming side by side or single file, then the 7' hose comes into its own.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I never said they're bad. For experienced divers that know what they're doing then it is truly personal preference. What is not right, and the herding problem, is when recreational divers say "oh this is what the tech divers are doing therefor I need to do that" and have their long hoses loose and uncontrolled which is quite easy. Are backplates better than jackets, who cares, do they need matching high performance 2nd stages, who cares, is donating your primary safer? That all depends on the diver and the situation. Having a long hose and not being able to control it is bad and it's threads like this that have herd type divers running out and getting 7' hoses and having no idea what they're doing with them.

Your objection then isn't so much to the configuration as it is to people diving it without understanding how to do so properly? That's legitimate ... but it's not a gear issue, it's a training issue.

It typically takes about 15 minutes to show someone how to rig, stow, and deploy a long hose. Somehow, I just don't see where that's any more difficult than any other configuration out there.

That's dangerous because I've seen divers get their long hoses caught on boats, and have the reg pull out of the hose, seen them get the loops caught in wrecks when they didn't have them pulled tight enough and have them get utterly confused and freak out.

Well, I've seen people trap their octo hoses, stow them with non-breakaway devices like a bolt-snap, I've seen MANY people donate octos upside down (know what happens when you take a breath off a nice, low-performance second-stage when the vent's higher than the mouthpiece?) ... I've seen people tuck their octos inside their jacket BCDs (where you can't see them).

People misuse every piece of equipment out there. That says nothing about the veracity of the gear ... it's more a statement about people getting sloppy and not following proper procedure. They do that in all kinds of creative ways.

Did I mention anything about normal recreational hose configuration with a hose getting drug? My donating hose is always in my mouth, and there is always the octo on my neck. Just a 40" one with an angle adapter not a 7' hose. If you want to dive one, have a mentor or instructor teach you how and explain why they use one.

So how is your setup any less complicated than a standard longhose configuration?

Yes I would rather have overkill than underkill, but even if I had a neck ring failure and was diving in the tropics, I wouldn't want my buddy giving me a long hose if I didn't know him. If he freaks out because there is a bunch of air coming out from behind my head and starts fumbling with a long hose that's more time I'm without air. If it gets caught on something then I'm screwed. We practice kicking around with donated hoses in the pool all the time. with 40" ones the OOA diver is on the right and you're close. It's not comfortable and you're not going to break any land speed records, but it suffices. With 90*'s you get a bit farther away and can kick somewhat comfortably and for vertical ascents it means he can't get away from you. You're holding onto his BC anyway incase he can't function well enough to control his own buoyancy and to keep him calm.

I'd prefer to show someone how to be competent than to make my equipment choices on the assumption that they're going to be incompetent. Particularly when the training is so simple.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)