Scuba deaths/incidents per certifying agency

[fisherdvm]

Objectively, DAN reports between 60 to 150 diver death each year. The information is split roughly equal number of beginners and equal number of technical divers. Can not sort it out by cert agencies, as their job is not to determine death rate per divers trained per agencies.

If you could break it down per agencies, likely PADI will have the highest number of death, but it is strictly because they trained more divers.

Confounding variables include, age, number of dives done per year, equipment, etc. Which must be sorted out.

My guess is, this might work both in favor and against the the agencies that produces the most divers. Diving agencies that have high standards will set the bar very high. Thus, divers who trained with such agencies likely will also make it a lifelong hobby. This will increase the total numbers of dives they do, and the hazards of the environment they dove in.

Whereas, agencies with low standard, will produce more certified divers. As the bar is set low, many "recreational" divers will join. But more than 1/2 will not do more than 10 dives or so after certifying. Therefore, you dilute the risk of the pool because of these "transient" divers.

Your question would only be valid, if the risk is broken down to the risk of death per dive done. As I mentioned before, likely, it would be too small of a number to make it statistically significant.

It is more the individual, and their committment to safe diving, rather than the agency. But the better prepared you are to dive safely, the less you are to have an accident.

 

[Adobo]

Well, the question I wanted an answer to was the question I asked. But since it seems like an impossible answer for you "expert" divers and the majority of answers aren't answers at all, so, how about this, if you don't know the answer to my question or have valid information to give me comparing PADI/SSI/NAUI and their respective training and safety statistics, then just shut up.

LOL!!!

Welcome to Scubaboard.

 

[Diver Dennis]

"if there was information available about the incident rate per certifying agency. I'm mostly interested in the PADI/SSI/NAUI comparison."

No meaningful information available.

 

[H2Andy]

But since it seems like an impossible answer for you "expert" divers and the majority of answers aren't answers at all

well, that's the last question from you i try to answer

and, by the way, you're welcome

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My fault. I thought the question carried it's own exlusions. Namely, the question "if there was information available about the incident rate per certifying agency. I'm mostly interested in the PADI/SSI/NAUI comparison." Which I (mistakenly) believed the exclusion to be if you have no direct knowledge of, or information that could prove helpful in locating said information, you are excused from participation.

... in which case you'd be sitting there right now wondering why nobody had bothered responding to your question.

The information you requested is not available. Nor would it have any relevence if it were. People are generally more interested in the causes of an accident than in the certification agency of the victim.

BTW - you're new to the board, and hopefully folks will cut you some slack, but telling people to "shut up" ain't generally tolerated here ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

If you could break it down per agencies, likely PADI will have the highest number of death, but it is strictly because they trained more divers.

Not necessarily. Without the basic information and an objective study, there's no way to know if such a result (assuming it does exist) is strictly because they train the most divers or from some other reason.

 

[ccardvol]

This question is a little more precise than the original but it still might not get you the information that you might be looking for.

Maybe if you shared a little bit about the problem you are trying to solve with "AOW certifications" you could get an answer that suits you better.

If I could, I'd like to share my personal experience...

When I took Open Water class, I was quite satisfied with the effort the instructor was making towards educating the students. However, I found the content of the material to be incomplete or obscure in some areas that I felt were important. These areas were:

• Gas planning - they introduced this notion of "be back at the boat with 500psi". There were no details as far as what formula to use to derive what pressure I needed to begin my ascent to make it to the surface with 500psi.
• Air Sharing - The shop I took my class from uses AIR2 style backup regulators. So when I donated my primary regulator to my buddy, I would have to breath from the AIR2. However, I found that the hose the AIR2 was attached to was to short for me to look at my buddy. So essentially, in that emergency scenario, I really would not be able to look eye to eye with my buddy.
• Finning techniques - from reading scubaboard, I had heard that many divers were employing alternative finning techniques to be able to turn like a helicopter or to back up. In my class, they talked about the flutter kick and the dolphin kick. No mention of others.

This experience left me feeling like I needed "more" after getting my Open Water certification. Unfortunately, when I started looking around, I found that the AOW classes offered in my area gave really "more of the same" and didn't much in terms of training or knowledge in those key areas. I was looking for proficiency in areas like air sharing, finning techniques and gas planning. In my case, the AOW classes taught by my LDS was the wrong solution.

So I guess the short of what I am getting at is that it sounds as if you are assuming that the solution is to take AOW. My question is, what are you trying to solve?

I'm trying to decide which agencies' AOW will give me the most comprehensive, in depth training. I went through the PADI OW, since then, being around a few dives shops and divers, it seems to me that the PADI course, though sufficient to get me underwater,was a bit lax. Scuba is a great activity, one that I hope to enjoy for many years. I don't want to be a danger to myself or just as importantly, to anyone else, so I want the training that will best prepare me.

It seemed like a totally fair question to me, a safety comparison between PADI/SSI/NAUI. But the "answer" that seems to be overriding response (I asked the same question in the Accidents/Incidents Thread) is "that's a non-question because the answer wouldn't blah blah blah blah". Of course it's a sensible, valid question. It seems to me like a lot of Instructors don't want that information known for some reason.

 

[GulfDiver77]

You mean the basic scuba thread,this is accidents and incidents thread. Instructors aren't the ones who keep statistics. And the agencies arent going to get together and publish those statistics. Just like if you ask the auto makers,How many people have been killed in your vehicles? They wouldn't answer. Also people probably don't appreciate being told to shut up in the other thread.


AS far as agencies go probably non of the people that have died diving had nothing to do with the agency. It's the instructor that matters not the agency,also it is the divers responsibility to learn what is being taught and to retain that knowledge.

Most diver deaths are human error,plain and simple.

 

[ccardvol]

Objectively, DAN reports between 60 to 150 diver death each year. The information is split roughly equal number of beginners and equal number of technical divers. Can not sort it out by cert agencies, as their job is not to determine death rate per divers trained per agencies.

If you could break it down per agencies, likely PADI will have the highest number of death, but it is strictly because they trained more divers.

Confounding variables include, age, number of dives done per year, equipment, etc. Which must be sorted out.

My guess is, this might work both in favor and against the the agencies that produces the most divers. Diving agencies that have high standards will set the bar very high. Thus, divers who trained with such agencies likely will also make it a lifelong hobby. This will increase the total numbers of dives they do, and the hazards of the environment they dove in.

Whereas, agencies with low standard, will produce more certified divers. As the bar is set low, many "recreational" divers will join. But more than 1/2 will not do more than 10 dives or so after certifying. Therefore, you dilute the risk of the pool because of these "transient" divers.

Your question would only be valid, if the risk is broken down to the risk of death per dive done. As I mentioned before, likely, it would be too small of a number to make it statistically significant.

It is more the individual, and their committment to safe diving, rather than the agency. But the better prepared you are to dive safely, the less you are to have an accident.

Ok, I think I understand that and I think that's a great answer, though I don't know what the peanut gallery will say about it.

Thanks for taking the time to break it down to me. I will buy you a beer if we ever meet.

Thanks again!

 

[Mike Edmonston]

SSIs "Advanced" card actually requires 4 specialties (e.g. nav, night, nitrox, deep or rescue) in order to get it. It therefore requires more diving and more instruction than the AOW from other agencies.

That's really comparing apples and oranges, though, and a PADI or NAUI diver can take the same specialties and wind up with basically identical training...

NAUI requires 6 specialty dives for the AOW. I require 7 to 8 when I teach it. I don't teach to bare minimums, and I choose to make BETTER DIVERS not sell cards. My advanced course is not easy, I cover such things as lift bag use and deployment, reel work, finning techniques, buoyancy drills, and much much more. I have had students compare it to a mini boot camp. You also get the Night dive, deep dive, navigation and underwater search and rescue, surface positional triangulation etc...

You want a complete advanced class, PM me.

Cheers

Mike