Ron Lee's Personal Rules for Diving in Cozumel

[uncfnp]

Chivalry is not dead, at least not in the South.

Watching over female divers because you think they are an accident waiting to happen is not my idea of chivalry!

 

[cvchief]

Oh, cut poor Ron some slack. It isn't like he said the girls should be back at the condo baking a pie while he was diving. There is no need to make him stop watching women more than men. It doesn't really effect you who he watches. Plus it is my understanding that making men stop watching women is kind of a losing proposition anyway.....

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Diving and political correctness! Interesting discussion. Here are some extracts from a study on Panic during diving that was on Padi.com. It was a joint study by PADI and Rodales scuba diving magazine.

"But, overall, significantly more females reported one or more panic experiences while diving (37 percent versus 24 percent of males). Probability (p) was calculated to better than 99.99 percent confidence that this difference wasn&#8217;t random (p < 0.0001). Forty- five percent of males and 57 percent of females with a history of panic before they began diving reported panic during one or more dives, compared to only 19 percent of males and 33 percent of females without a prediving panic history (p < 0.0001 for both)."

Panic during and after initial certification training &#8212; Eleven percent of males with a prediving history of panic experienced their first dive panic during their ini- tial certification training, compared to four percent of those without a prediving history of panic. Thirty-four percent of males with a prediving history of panic had their first dive panic after their initial training, compared to only 16 percent of those without a prediving history of panic. Twenty- one percent of females with a prediving history of panic had their first panic experience during their initial training compared to 11 percent of those without a prediving history of panic. Thirty-five percent of fe- males with a prediving history of panic had their first dive panic after their initial training, compared to 1 percent of those without a prediving history of panic.

So Ron can go back to watching 37% women (vs 24% men) as the study has provided him the numbers. In critique the numbers, I would like to remind Ron that one could say that men are less likely to report panic during a study because they will be branded as cowards. This has stronger cultural consequences for men than it does for women. So he should keep an eye on the men too. But before he does that, he should realize that this would constitute sexist attitude towards men because so far there is no study done by PADI or anyone else that has shown that men do not report panic for the fear of being branded as cowards. Ron will be adopting stereotypical attitudes towards male masculinity.

In the light of the above may be Ron should shut up and go diving and look over whoever he feels like. Political correctness will not let him win either ways

 

[BTravlin]

Why does it offend people so much that someone would be looking out for you? I don't mind. My all-time favorite dive buddy terms himself a chauvinist -- I suspect if we ever got into his actual opinions about what women are and what they should do, we'd end up in an argument. He has never, ever suggested I'm incapable of doing any dive we have planned together (in fact, on occasion, he has egged me on when I'm being cautious) but I know for darned sure he watches to make sure I don't fall on steep slopes, and he'll step in and offer to manage equipment if I look like I'm not doing well. My guess is the same attitude extends underwater, which means an attentive buddy. As long as he doesn't step on my toes about what I would like the two of us to do, does it matter? If anything, it makes my dive more pleasant and arguably safer.

If somebody decided to make a practice of watching out for divers in blue wetsuits, would there be this much fuss? "Watching out for" doesn't translate into "looking down upon" or "preventing from doing", at least not in my book.

Totally agree.

My wife and I walk almost three miles around our neighborhood daily. I always insist on walking on the outside, closest to the passing traffic and possible danger. My wife finds this odd even after explaining to her that was the way I was brought up. I've tried walking on the inside and it is downright uncomfortable. Is it because I think she is less capable of safely walking down the street? No, it's because I was taught from a young age that this is the way gentlemen behave.

Having also grown up in the South, I know exactly what Ron means and it was not meant in a condescending way.

 

[vladimir]

In critique of the above numbers, one could say that men are less likely to report panic during a study because they will be branded as cowards. This has stronger cultural consequences for men than it does for women. But before we accept it as a fact, it must be noted that no studies have actually shown that this is the case so this assertion could also be grounded in sexist cultural stereotypes about males.

Yeah, I would say that men are considerably less likely to report panic. I don't think they'd be branded "cowards," necessarily, but yes, there are good reasons for men to be reluctant to admit weakness. If that study is based on self-reported panic alone I would be very skeptical of its conclusions. I don't have a lot of confidence in PADI's and Rodale's' ability to conduct scientific research to begin with.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Perhaps you heard about the "Rules" book that two young girls had hand written. It was lost at a Walmart and finally returned to them. From the ones I saw...basic good rules for a decent society. I am going to include a few of my diving rules.

1) Always monitor/watch over women divers.

2) Always monitor/watch over young divers.

3) Always monitor/watch over new/inexperienced divers.

4) Periodically count all divers in the group.

5) If I see a solitary diver on the surface, go check on them. Ending a dive is less important than ensuring their safety.

Am I missing something, or is this not specific to Cozumel? Was this thread split off from the one about the missing diver?

On the issue of panic, I (male, if that makes any difference) was cool as a cucumber during OW class and for many dives afterwards. When I started reading SB and learning about all the things that could happen to me or that I didn't know that I didn't know, I went through a period where I would have panic attacks. No joke.

 

[Elemental]

Totally agree.

My wife and I walk almost three miles around our neighborhood daily. I always insist on walking on the outside, closest to the passing traffic and possible danger. My wife finds this odd even after explaining to her that was the way I was brought up. I've tried walking on the inside and it is downright uncomfortable. Is it because I think she is less capable of safely walking down the street? No, it's because I was taught from a young age that this is the way gentlemen behave.

Having also grown up in the South, I know exactly what Ron means and it was not meant in a condescending way.

I do that too but as a matter of practicality, not "chivalry" for its own sake. I'm significantly taller than she so I'm more visible to idiot drivers on their cells. No one's likely to want to pull me into a van either.

Diving, I keep watch on my teammates equally, at least until one has a problem.

 

[Ana]

Perhaps you heard about the "Rules" book that two young girls had hand written. It was lost at a Walmart and finally returned to them. From the ones I saw...basic good rules for a decent society. I am going to include a few of my diving rules.

1) Always monitor/watch over women divers.

2) ...

3...........

I read this yesterday, along with a few replies all the way to the "I'm from the south" response... at that point I had to just click away, any reply from me wouldn't last a full hour without being reported, so why bother.

I forgot about it until now that I'm browsing the board again while having coffee in the balcony, looking at the blue flat waters of the Gulf and regretting not having this coffee in my Pompano backyard instead.... Up here I'm "IN THE SOUTH" Looks nice, would make a great picture for a Florida brochure, I'm actually lucky to have this view, when I first saw this, my brain almost short-circuited fantasizing about aaaaaallllll the diving I was going to do here.... but it is just a front, diving this is colorless, cold, bad viz water most of the times, I did it for a while but the good spearfishing doesn't make it worth it for me anymore. Not much Florida weather topside either, they even have blankets for their plants, but the base where I work is here, so I'm here.

Just like the "I'm from the South" response. In a way it is a front, something to say when there's a need for an explanation.... If rule #1 was to watch over blacks, it wouldn't sound so gentleman-like I suppose, but it would be just as good of an action isn't it?. Why would it be necessary for him to justify his rules, saying "I'm from the south" sounds similar to someone justifying some "less than acceptable" action by saying "I was drunk".

Is this implying that men from the north are somehow less or wrong?

Ron's post sounds to me like the very typical talk from a good ole'boy from the south, "bless his heart".

On a different note, as far as the statistics for panic being greater on women than men, I can believe that easily. I don't have data but seems to me, more women take diving because their partner is a diver, than men diving because their partner does (maybe even more with women from the south)
The odds of panicking if diving is not quite your thing are probably a lot higher.... let's hope that Ron has the knowledge and strength of saving all those damsels in distress.

 

[ggunn]

Oh, cut poor Ron some slack. It isn't like he said the girls should be back at the condo baking a pie while he was diving. There is no need to make him stop watching women more than men. It doesn't really effect you who he watches. Plus it is my understanding that making men stop watching women is kind of a losing proposition anyway.....

Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant, that's what I say!



---------- Post added January 20th, 2013 at 10:52 AM ----------

...I'm browsing the board again while having coffee in the balcony, looking at the blue flat waters of the Gulf ...

Blue water in the Gulf of Mexico?

 

[fishi]

Yes, that was Bret Gilliam. His chilling first-hand account, and a good one by Thalassamania, too, is in this thread:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/marine-life-ecosystems/27499-shark-attack-stories.html

I have actually saved a drowning woman's life during a dive. She was gorgeous, 19, and gave me a nice kiss and a hug when she saw me later that night, and said, "You saved my life." I swear. Best day of my life, so my memory is flawless on this one.

On average, however, based on gas supply alone—and not even considering macho attitude—I would guess that among recreational divers the men are in more jeopardy than the women.

I would think so too. When I think about accidents in Cozumel there are the two Ron refered two. Before those two I remember a women on the C-53 was lost. Before that was Opal. In my first trip in 07 two girls were lost the week before we arrived. That's the only ones I heard about. All female divers no males that I know of. I started going there in 07 so I wouldn't know about any accidents before that. Anybody know of any others?

I like your rules Ron it's just that #1 makes me laugh. Seems a little sexist.