Rescuing panicked people during accidents...

[RadRob]

I feel the need to defend myself. How terrible I have to defend against personal attacks on a message board meant for discussion and debate. Personal attacks and bashing is different and deterorates the integrity of this board, while disagreement and debate is healthy and what forums are about. But here it goes...

I never said I punch people or knock them out every time there is a rescue. What I said was... I would if the need was there. And I should have said stun, as knockng people out is more difficult and ridiculous to think this is what I do. Sorry, forgot that people here take EVERYTHING literally and analyze everything looking for a chance to jump someone's butt.

And to all the firefighting gurus here who wrote SOP's and manuals for the entire nation and happen to grace me with their presence here... If you are saying that it isn't taught to not be part of the problem and to do what it takes to come out alive, it is suprising you are still alive. In my department and all the training facilities in the area, they teach you that you can't help if you aren't physically able or disabled by a panicked person. If a panicked person is fighting you and is putting your life in danger, yes, you do what it takes to get yourself and that person out. Were we told directly, word for word, to punch someone in every situation or "wap" someone 50 times, no. Thats the dumbest assumption I have seen here. NEVER did I say I have done that. I have seen a few situations where it was needed and it did happen. They both survived. That is fire rescue, not diving so I wont go into that any further.

For reference, in my area, we have 2 dams with swift water spillways that sweep idiots at least every other month who get caught off guard for whatever stupid reason when the gates open. When you have dams, there are usually lakes on the other side. In rough waters, there are times divers are called to help in rescues, and occasionally search and recovery. During the summer times, there are plenty of people on the lakes drinking and plenty of accidents that happen. And the need to rescue arises frequently, unfortunately.

For those who are simply sitting and waiting for someone to ambush, when I asked about "contraindicated" it was EXACTLY THAT, a question. I may not be the lexicon, dictionary, expert so I guess I wont ask about words you all use when posting. I apologize.

Mr. Plumb Bob - please feel free to IM me and let me know your extensive knowledge on either diving or firefighting and I would appreciate the name calling and personal attacks being left out. This is a discussion forum and when people disagree with what my views are, I don't mind, I'm a big boy. I really don't care what names people call me either, but to keep this board from becomming nothing more than a name calling, people bashing, trash board, please leave me alone and keep the name calling to yourself. This is a simple request from a dork.

Let the ripping begin...

 

[ianw2]

Hey, Rad! Sorry I missed the original thread. It must have been a rip snorter.

About 30 years ago, when I was going through my life guard and water safety instructor training, my instructors emphasized the fact that nothing in my training would require me to end up as a victim in ANY rescue situation. MY safety came first; that of the victim came SECOND.

I remember one of the instructors mentioning that it would be better to allow a really panicked and uncontrollable victim to pass out before attempting a rescue if that was the SAFEST WAY TO DO THE JOB! In no way de he imply that we let EVERY victim pass out; just that it was AN option in an EXTREME situation. I even remember an instructor mentioning that a quick jab or a slap might be the ticket to controlling a panicked victim. The point being made was: Do everything you can to make the rescue AS LONG AS IT DOESN"T PUT YOU IN JEOPARDY.

Anyway, Rad, I understand your point. "Popping" a victim is too radical a method to put into official SOPs. However, it is a potential trick in the arsenal of a rescue swimmer.

Cheers, Rad! I hope you’re nearby if I ever need a rescue swimmer - I know you’re going to be doing your darndest to make sure I come through!

Ian

 

[ChainSaw0069]

Cpt. Clark once said "You Do What You Gotta Do"to get the job done.

 

[scubapatton]

The upside to a web-based forum is the open exchange of ideas. The downside is the ability to rip into people and have little to no repercussions.

I have no idea how the ripping started, and I have posted a thing or two that seem to get people's panties in a wad as well. I got a little defensive then and then just stepped back and moved on. Some poeple just need to bash other's I suppose.

Anyway, I was taught in my rescue class... if the distressed diver is frantic.. wait them out. It is sort of like consent on CPR, etc. If you ask someone if you can help, and they say No... wait till they pass out... then you have implied consent.

I look at rescue in diving the same way. Go ahead and freak... then when you lose steam, I will approach. I probably would not whack someone. I would just hang back. The story would change if it is a fast moving current, time is critical, heat of the moment type of thing, etc. I may consider something more extreme (eg a whack), but I certainly would not put it in my repertoire. I would hate for such a litigious world to get wind I actually advocate the violence. Pardon it, Yes, advocate it, No.

Just my thoughts. Bummer you got bashed, but screw 'em. You get to move on, they get to remain bothered by it. One of the few things my dad taught me.. Like water off a duck's back.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I never said I punch people or knock them out every time there is a rescue. What I said was... I would if the need was there. And I should have said stun, as knockng people out is more difficult and ridiculous to think this is what I do.

If a panicked person is fighting you and is putting your life in danger, yes, you do what it takes to get yourself and that person out. Were we told directly, word for word, to punch someone in every situation or "wap" someone 50 times, no. Thats the dumbest assumption I have seen here. NEVER did I say I have done that.

Oh great, now you tell me? What am I supposed to do with this new pair of brass knuckles I just baught?


For those who are simply sitting and waiting for someone to ambush, when I asked about "contraindicated" it was EXACTLY THAT, a question. I may not be the lexicon, dictionary, expert so I guess I wont ask about words you all use when posting. I apologize.[/QUOTE]

As someone who is a less than accomplished typist or linguist, I understand and no apology needed. But, for the sake of being correct here, your comment read more like a statement and a correction than a question. In any case, a couple of people answered any question completely including spelling, pronunciation and the definition/usage.

Mr. Plumb Bob - please feel free to IM me and let me know your extensive knowledge on either diving or firefighting and I would appreciate the name calling and personal attacks being left out. This is a discussion forum and when people disagree with what my views are, I don't mind, I'm a big boy. I really don't care what names people call me either, but to keep this board from becomming nothing more than a name calling, people bashing, trash board, please leave me alone and keep the name calling to yourself. This is a simple request from a dork.

Let the ripping begin...

Yes, the personal attacks. I think I detected a little bit of that in some of your posts but no matter. You often see that and, most often, it's when someone doesn't like what you say but has no reasonable arguement or factual basis on which to mount an argument. They then attack the person rather than the argument presented. The term to describe it's use as a debate technique is "ad hominem"

LOL, I just got a bunch of PMs telling me how irritating my discussions regarding training standards are and they essentially "told" me to stop. Ok, I'm a bad and irritating man and they don't like me but they didn't present any evidence from the training standards that support the contention that I am wrong. They also failed to provide evidence to their authority to tell me what I can or can't post. So, you either kiss the groups butt or grow a thick skin.

Another popular technique is the straw-man argument. They make a statement, attribut it to you and procede to argue against it...even though you never said any such thing. Sometimes it's unintentional and due to the fact that they don't understand what it is that you did say or were trying to say. I saw some of that in one of your first responses to one of my posts. You presented a pretty fair argument against something that I never said. LOL

I don't know if we've ever crossed paths on the board before but in these couple of threads, it looked to me like you came on pretty strong with some pretty matter of fact statements and got called, caught and maybe a little slam dunked. I won't form any lasting judgements over it since I get a little intense too...so I've been told.

You have to be careful here. There are a lot of members and no matter what the subject, there is bound to one or more real experts. It's hard to get away with being right, there isn't any way to get away with being completely wrong and if you BS, you'll probably get you butt handed to you.

 

[mikerault]

Actually I like the sneak attack. You initially approach from the front talking to calm them down, if they don't calm down, lunge, act out of control you back off, tell them you are leaving and submerge. Dive under them and come up rapidly from behind, usually you can get a cross chest carry hold (on a swimmer or snorkeler) or grab a tank valve and sandwich them before they realize what's happened.

And yes. as a last resort I would let them have it.

Mike

 

[Charlie99]

Actually I like the sneak attack. You initially approach from the front talking to calm them down, if they don't calm down, lunge, act out of control you back off, tell them you are leaving and submerge. Dive under them and come up rapidly from behind, usually you can get a cross chest carry hold (on a swimmer or snorkeler) or grab a tank valve and sandwich them before they realize what's happened.

I did rescue class with just one other student. We did about 5 panicked diver exercises each. We actively tried to drown the "rescuer", and I do mean ACTIVELY. Onlookers on the beach later asked us if we were doing some sort of combat training.

A cross chest carry would always result in the rescuer getting, at the very least, his mask ripped off. In my most successful attempt as the victim, a cross chest hold allowed me to spin around, demask, and then dunk the rescuer. On a single tank diver, the knees on the tank, valve held at arm's length was by far the best with an actively combative victim.

Luckily, in my only real life encounter with panic, staying about 8' away and issuing a command to inflate BCD was sufficient to break the rapidly rising panic cycle.

 

[RadRob]

I won't deny attacking statements. Some things I have a hard line on and it bleeds into other areas of my life. I despise the fact that the government tries to regulate our lives and I see the same thing coming to the diving world. When accidents happen more frequently, there will be laws and regulations imposed on all because of the ignorance of a few. I do not want to see this sport regulated to death. By discussing the accidents and changing what needs to be changed amongst ourselves, we can keep legislators arguing about the crap they already have.

I also don't believe in c-cards. a worthless piece of plastic that doesn't biodegrade and will polute the seas someday.

I will not directly attack someone personally or call names. My statements may address statements that a particular person said, but I never make a direct attack on someone putting them down as a person. Mike - I may disagree with some things you say. Actually, I agree with a lot you say in other threads, just not some things here. But I'm not gonna call you a moron here because I don't agree with you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how much I disagree with them.

I do find myself defending things I never said because I go straight to defense mode and animal parts of the brain take over. When someone feels they are being attacked, the frontal cortex of the brain is slowed (I watch Dr. Phil so trust me I know).

Mike -I have no issues with you and will watch how strong I make my statements. I look forward to civil debates in the future.

 

[rockjock3]

In my 4 years of firefighting (and 25 years growing up in the fire department) I was never taught to hit/knock/pop/slug/bump/etc a victim. I have also (in many rescues) never had the need arise. People, in my experience, panic a little different in water vs air (fire).

People in water flail out of fear of going below the surface. You, being an object on the surface, are a means to their ends (staying on the surface) at least in their minds. I was taught to simply wait them out so that you don't become a victim also. If you wait them out and they reenergize when you get close, or they don't start full-uncontrolled panic until you get close, and they grab you then you simply push up on them and go under (that is the last place they want to go) then move away or behind them and take the actions necessary.

When rescuing in fires the people seem a little more coherent. Yes they are paniced, but I have never seen them flailing trying to get on top of me. I have had them run up to me screaming, but their goal is getting out of the bldg, so grabbing onto and climbing up on a stationary person doesn't get them closer to their goal or aid them.

If the need ever arose I would do just like all of my training has taught me, stop, think, act (that is if there isn't a planned/trained response for the scenario that arises).

I am not bashing anybody, I didn't see the other thread, I am just offering my viewpoint/opinion from my experiences training. This will hopefully give you another way to look at it, whether right or wrong.

 

[Skeeter1097]

I think it is are duty to dump on as many people as possible. If you see something in a post that you can challenge it is your Duty too hammer that Pearson. If they yous bad spelling of Cramer. If they put the cart in front of the mull. If you need to knock me out in order to save me. do it and I well thank you latter. Just don't use the brass nucleus. They leave markers.