Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

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No, they never did give a min pressure to be back on the boat, just to signal the DM at half (1500) and low air (1000), and that they didn't want to see the out of air signal.
This signals a poor operator. The DM should periodically be asking for your actual remaining pressure, not a threshold indication. Asking for a threshold assumes you will hit it. It also does not allow the DM to be aware of each persons trend.

On a recent trip the dive operator used these same stupid rules. And got pissed when we signaled back OK each time they queried. Right to the end of the dive. So the DM made a special trip over to look at our pressure gauges. The first few dives were shallow and calm. We never hit 1500psi, so based on their rules we could not answer anything but OK. The DM assumed we screwed up.

If the DM had asked for actual pressures then there would be no surprises, no extra checking required. Bad DM.

These DM's were fully trained instructors... </sarcasm>
 
This signals a poor operator. The DM should periodically be asking for your actual remaining pressure, not a threshold indication. Asking for a threshold assumes you will hit it. It also does not allow the DM to be aware of each persons trend.

On a recent trip the dive operator used these same stupid rules. And got pissed when we signaled back OK each time they queried. Right to the end of the dive. So the DM made a special trip over to look at our pressure gauges. The first few dives were shallow and calm. We never hit 1500psi, so based on their rules we could not answer anything but OK. The DM assumed we screwed up.

If the DM had asked for actual pressures then there would be no surprises, no extra checking required. Bad DM.

These DM's were fully trained instructors... </sarcasm>

I actually think you are the one being a little pig headed. 1500 and 1000 were the levels where YOU were supposed to initiate contact with the DM and let him now of your levels so that he could gauge when to return (or start to return) to the boat. There is nothing in there that 1500 and 1000 were the only signals you were allowed to give. If the DM asks for your remaining pressure, give him the actual number.; if your air was above 1500, he wouldn't care. He has never met you before. He asked you for a number and you gave him words, but the hell was he supposed to think?
 
I actually think you are the one being a little pig headed. 1500 and 1000 were the levels where YOU were supposed to initiate contact with the DM and let him now of your levels so that he could gauge when to return (or start to return) to the boat. There is nothing in there that 1500 and 1000 were the only signals you were allowed to give. If the DM asks for your remaining pressure, give him the actual number.; if your air was above 1500, he wouldn't care. He has never met you before. He asked you for a number and you gave him words, but the hell was he supposed to think?
Sorry i mis communciated the full story. the DM only wanted 1500 and 1000 indicators. We pro-actively asked him how he wanted us to signal air pressure readings and he waved us off and said only tell me when you hit 1500 and 1000. he did not want remaining pressures. and did not want to establish a signal mechanism to convey readings. lazy DM. bad DM.
 
How do you realistically and immediately assess every drill and skill you practice?

etc..

Example:

After OW, I did some diving in Mexico. Cenotes and Cozumel reefs. I saw my DM on the reef dives shoot a bag at the end. I thought I should know how to do that.

I watched a GUE video on YouTube that showed me how to shoot a bag.

I went to a pool with a buddy and I practiced it. I took my GoPro and got my buddy to video me and I watched it afterwards.

Hovering just off the bottom makes it really easy to see in a video if you're maintaining good buoyancy and proper trim.

That is how I learned to shoot a bag from depth.

How hard was that?

The hardest skill I've been trained on so far is valve drills. It has the most steps and is the most physically difficult for me.

I don't see any reason a person couldn't use the same approach and learn how to do valve drills just as well as I learned it from my instructor in Intro to Tech. Including self-assessment. It's just not that hard. And it is easy to find standards to apply to one's self-assessment. As well as not having to be too imaginative to think of exercises for yourself to make sure you can do it even when otherwise loaded.

Hold a stop to +/- 1 foot. Share air. Shoot a bag and hold onto it. Do a gas switch. Simulate a failure and do a valve drill. All at the same time or in succession. Give yourself a time limit for everything.

Get a buddy to record video while you do it. Watch it and assess yourself. Maybe even ask your buddy(s) to watch it and critique.

The main benefits I see of retaining a certified instructor are that they already have a pre-packaged program. You don't have to do your own research to figure out how you want to do things. You don't have to work out your own practice regimen. You don't have to work out what your performance standards should be. You don't have to figure out how to objectively assess your own performance.

But, you also don't necessarily learn other schools of thought on how to do things. And if you don't, then you don't get to learn the pros and cons of those options and decide for yourself what is best for you. Some people teach "all deco gases on left". Others teach "rich on right". If you just sign up with an instructor, you'll probably be taught one of those ways and probably no mention of the other, or at least no objective assessment of why one is better than the other (not to say that there aren't SOME instructors that will give you an objective assessment of the alternatives). Doing your own research gives you the opportunity to learn about the pros and cons of each method and decide for yourself.

What's that you say? I'm not qualified to decide which way is better? Okay, then I'm not qualified to choose between two instructors who teach those two different ways, am I? Because if I am, then I have already implicitly chosen which way I'm going to do it, haven't I?

If you're willing to do your own research to figure out all those things (how to do it, how best to practice, how best to self-assess, what the performance standards should be, etc.), then, well, all the information is out there. The tools are available. The books, and videos, and experienced divers you can talk to. They're all available. If you're willing to do the work for yourself, instead of just buying into a certified instructor's pre-packaged curriculum, practice regimen, performance standards, and assessment methods.

Oh, and the other important benefit of a certified instructor is getting that card that lets you actually do things you can't do otherwise. Like go out on charter boats and get fills at shops.

I think it's kind of sad how closely some people hold information on how to dive. They're either protecting the instructor industry or protecting themselves from being sued. So frustrating and so disappointing.

I've said for a long time that if you can't write down how to do something, then you don't really know it. If you do know it, then you COULD write it down and I could learn it from what you wrote (without your personal attendance).

If someone wants to go from OW certification to doing AN/DP diving, why shouldn't they be able to learn it on their own, just like a pilot can learn to fly, and then simply book an exam to demonstrate their knowledge and skills? Learning to fly requires a very few hours of training with an instructor (akin to OW training), and then they are free to go fly solo as much as they want until they are ready to fly with an examiner and get their pilot's ticket. They can do all the "classroom" work online. Why do you think learning to dive requires so much more hands-on in-person training than learning to fly and can't be done using books and self-practice?
 
PADI seems to emphasize being back on the boat with 500, and perhaps I incorrectly assumed that everybody tried to have that much or more left.
That's news to me, and I have been a PADI instructor for quite a few years.

One section of the newest PADI OW manual describes a buddy team planning their dive, and in that example they do indeed plan to finish the dive with 500 PSI. That's the only mention I see of it in the book.

There are several ways to plan for gas reserves. I have never taught "be back on the boat with 500 PSI," either in OW classes or (especially) in tech classes. The "be back on the boat with 500 PSI" is intended to make sure you have enough gas to deal with a last minute OOA emergency for your buddy. If I reach the top of a shallow reef with plenty of gas and enough allotted time, I will often drift around there well past 500 PSI.
 
Sorry i mis communciated the full story. the DM only wanted 1500 and 1000 indicators. We pro-actively asked him how he wanted us to signal air pressure readings and he waved us off and said only tell me when you hit 1500 and 1000. he did not want remaining pressures. and did not want to establish a signal mechanism to convey readings. lazy DM. bad DM.

Then not really your fault. I still would have probably given him my PSI, but yeah, bad DM.
 
DMs on dive trips use a procedure determined by their supervisors. I think I have seen every possible way of doing it, so I can say there is no right way or wrong way. Furthermore, after they have been doing it one way day in and day out for years, they really get into a habit that is hard to break. Here is a story that will show how hard that habit.

A few years ago I shattered my left collarbone and broke some ribs in an accident. It was a long recovery, and I scheduled a technical diving trip in Cozumel for when I expected to have recovered. I was concerned that I would not be able to use my left arm as needed for technical diving, and I did not have a good opportunity to try it out before the trip. I talked with the operator, and we thought it would be a good idea to have me gear up as if for a technical dive while doing a day of recreational diving. That way I could practice all the skills I would need in an environment where they would not be needed. The DM was fully briefed on this. So I joined the DM and two other divers, all wearing standard AL 80s, for a recreational dive. I was wearing overfilled LP 85 doubles (about 200 cubic feet total) and carrying a full AL 80 and a full AL 40--about 320 cubic feet of gas in total.

Before we went into the water, the DM briefed the group before the dive, explaining how he wanted them to signal their gas supplies when he asked. I assumed that did not include me. As we dived, I switched tanks, manipulated my valves, and did all the practice I had planned. About halfway through the planned dive, the DM gave the signal to one of the divers to signal his gas supply, and he did as told. He then gave the same signal to the second diver, and he responded as directed. Then he gave the signal to me. I thought "WTF?" and just stared back at him in disbelief. He gave the signal again, this time more insistently. In fact, he looked a little angry that I had not responded. So I gave a big shrug to signal, "OK, then, if that's what you really want," and I then pointed to each of the 4 tanks in turn, indicating how much I had in each of them. Of course, in total I still had quite a bit more than the three of them combined had started the dive with. His face registered his realization of that idiocy, and he never asked me again.
 
Get a buddy to record video while you do it. Watch it and assess yourself. Maybe even ask your buddy(s) to watch it and critique.
I think this is the key issue - even you have a very experienced buddy, they may be able to give you feedback in terms of letting you know something looks off but it's not always possible for non-instructors to pinpoint exactly what needs to be done differently to improve your technique. Most of the things I had to change were completely non-intuitive. I'm not saying all instructors are able to do this either but I think this is one of the important points that separates the great instructors from everyone else.
I'm lucky enough to live and dive in a region with a very active tech community and I've gotten invaluable support from the local cadre of divers. I've gotten what I would call "gross" feedback from them when I'm screwing up eg. feet up when trying to hold a stop at 20ft, but the stuff that had a huge impact on my diving and resulted in light bulb moments were all small details that came from an amazing instructor. Don't get me wrong - all feedback is useful. I guess it comes down to how much trial and error you're willing to go through before you're doing it to your satisfaction.
Another thing I would be worried about with learning this way is that if you could do things to your satisfaction but it's not quite optimal. There's a small issue in your procedure/technique that you or your buddy don't notice. It doesn't cause any trouble on its own but at some point you have multiple of these small issues piling on top of each other and the total impact is much larger than what you would think it would be. I think having a good instructor who catches the finer details and, more importantly, is able to provide specific feedback on how to fix it, would prevent this from happening.

I think it's kind of sad how closely some people hold information on how to dive. They're either protecting the instructor industry or protecting themselves from being sued. So frustrating and so disappointing.
Not sure what you mean here. Are instructors (and their students) hiding details of certain techniques and/or procedures?

If someone wants to go from OW certification to doing AN/DP diving, why shouldn't they be able to learn it on their own, just like a pilot can learn to fly, and then simply book an exam to demonstrate their knowledge and skills? Learning to fly requires a very few hours of training with an instructor (akin to OW training), and then they are free to go fly solo as much as they want until they are ready to fly with an examiner and get their pilot's ticket. They can do all the "classroom" work online. Why do you think learning to dive requires so much more hands-on in-person training than learning to fly and can't be done using books and self-practice?
My understanding is that the endorsement to fly solo before you get your license is extremely limiting and specific to a couple of airports and flight paths close to your home airport and also has restrictions based on weather conditions. Also, "flying solo" in this context is not a good thing because the reason you do that is because you can't be trusted yet to take other people up with you. I don't think OW is a good comparison here - I'd think it's more like you completed the pool sessions and can dive in a pool as much as you want before you do the check dives.
In addition, even though the minimum number of hours to get this endorsement is not that high, most instructors in my area require at least 2-3 times that before they let you go off on your own. Just like in diving, it comes down to how good the instructor is. I'm sure there's flight instructors out there who will give the endorsement after the minimum number of hours but that's more akin to a resort diving course than something that actually focuses on good fundamentals with an eye on long term growth and safety.
 
Example:. ..
If you're willing to do your own research to figure out all those things (how to do it, how best to practice, how best to self-assess, what the performance standards should be, etc.), then, well, all the information is out there. The tools are available. The books, and videos, and experienced divers you can talk to. They're all available. ...

I've said for a long time that if you can't write down how to do something, then you don't really know it. If you do know it, then you COULD write it down and I could learn it from what you wrote. ..
"You teach best what you need most to learn. And the person with the most wisdom is not the one who knows all the smart answers, but the one who knows how to find and apply the correct solutions. . ."

As for redundancy for recreational dives with pre-planned contingency deco, consider applying UTD minimum deco protocol: reserve enough backgas volume for two stressed divers (or volume of pony tank for solo diving) to cover 1min deco stops starting at one-half your max depth, plus the time over the NDL at your max depth distributed over those deco stops (no more than five minutes over NDL or else you're gonna have to think about taking larger primary & pony cylinders or a twinset). So for example,100' max depth with 5 minutes over NDL of 20min, you would do a minimum deco contingency profile of 2min every 10' up to the surface starting at 50' depth.

Alternatively, pre-plan with your dive computer's deco algorithm to find out how much reserve volume to allocate should you have a NDL excursion contingency at a particular max depth (easy to do in Dive Plan mode on the Petrel/Perdix dive computer, and should be easy to monitor realtime with the Perdix AI).
 
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That's news to me, and I have been a PADI instructor for quite a few years.

One section of the newest PADI OW manual describes a buddy team planning their dive, and in that example they do indeed plan to finish the dive with 500 PSI. That's the only mention I see of it in the book.

There are several ways to plan for gas reserves. I have never taught "be back on the boat with 500 PSI," either in OW classes or (especially) in tech classes. The "be back on the boat with 500 PSI" is intended to make sure you have enough gas to deal with a last minute OOA emergency for your buddy. If I reach the top of a shallow reef with plenty of gas and enough allotted time, I will often drift around there well past 500 PSI.

+1, most of my diving is drift with direct, unimpeded access to the surface. I usually surface with plenty of gas as, an hour of bottom time, helps keep the charter on schedule. On occasion, for good reasons, I bleed my tank down to 200-300 psi, I do not see this as a major infraction. And, just to infuriate some, sometimes I do light deco
 
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