Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[admikar]

If all these things are s blindingly obvious with a quick google how come a large proportion of the diving population are rubbish? Why so many people on here asking how much weight they need? Have you never taken lead of a person who insists they are correctly weighted?

Hose routing. Nobody makes big fuss over which post feeds the BC and the drysuit. I'll be ok swapping that round, after all I always had the Drysuit fed from the right on a single. No problem?

We are talking about people that are willing to learn, you are talking about people for whom,at least most of them, SCUBA is an item on a bucket list. In other words, if I want to learn, I will check multiple sources: books, net, face to face talk with other divers,and, formal training. You wouldn't believe how much stuff about diving I have learned from this place.I was trained in a regular rec jacket BC,octo gear. Then I found this place, and went BPW route, streamlined hoses and such. Never received any formal training.
Have a few dives in tech configuration, which means (at least for me)doubles, drysuit, DSMB, never received formal training.
I did, however, listen a talkdown of what gear and more importantly, why, was needed for such dives. It was never "formal".

Other divers here, with a tiny fraction of that student's training, skillset and experience think they'd achieve equal, or better, results from YouTube videos... go figure.

The trend in this thread seems to be some inexperienced divers arguing against the need for formal training, and experienced divers arguing for it. Shouldn't it be the other way round? LOL

Perhaps positive feedback in learning has gone too far (everyone gets a prize) certainly in club diving if you are below the accepted standard people won't be shy and telling you so. At first you get offered help, if you continue to think you're above it, then you'll be told as much.

When divers illustrate a cynicism for training, it's often likely that they've never experienced good training and/or under-appreciate the standards they could be achieving.

I have no problem saying that good quality formal instruction is very helpful and, in some case, required. What I have a problem with is this dogma that every single thing in scuba MUST be taught in a formal training class by a certified instructor.

It was already said,@DevonDiver , are you sure you're not biased? I am inexperienced diver by any measure, but if I remember correctly,all this argument came from "agency vs club training". Some things in diving MUST have formal training. Some don't.So, you say I need a formal training for a drysuit. I never got it, so I don't have a card. But I was trained for a drysuit by a mentor, which happens to be an instructor too. Are you saying that my training is not valid since it's not "formal". I was trained and assessed informally, and found to be competent and safe to dive in a drysuit.
I really wonder how we would get where we are if there were no "informal" divers before all the formal training was invented?

 

[CptTightPants21]

No one is saying formal training is the ONLY way to learn. DevonDiver and others are saying that if you learned a skill from a youtube video/article and subjectively compared yourself to that video; 99% chance you are missing some of the nuances of the skill necessary for true mastery. Without the objective opinion and guidance from a disciplined and exacting instructor, you are lacking a known mastery of the skill. This is wide ranging and can cover a lot of areas, from small technique issues to fixing a divers overall set up based on their personal diving and situation.

As was said before, GUE manuals are very detailed about steps and procedures for drills and there are plenty of videos online demonstrating what needs to be done Watching those videos and practicing the skills is not the same as passing the course (and don't kid yourself, most students practice ALOT before going to a fundies class).

 

[stuartv]

No one is saying formal training is the ONLY way to learn.

It may not have been explicitly stated. But, there seem to be a few of us that agree that that is exactly how some posters' message is actually coming across.

 

[KevinNM]

As was said before, GUE manuals are very detailed about steps and procedures for drills and there are plenty of videos online demonstrating what needs to be done Watching those videos and practicing the skills is not the same as passing the course (and don't kid yourself, most students practice ALOT before going to a fundies class).

I have been told by a couple of instructors that it takes about 2 years for most divers to go from a rec pass to a tech pass. Some very experienced divers who dive a lot do it in a year or less, some people take a lot longer.

 

[DevonDiver]

It may not have been explicitly stated. But, there seem to be a few of us that agree that that is exactly how some posters' message is actually coming across.

I've specifically and clearly addressed that 'misunderstanding' in a detailed, explanatory post.

It seems that it's convenient to ignore that I've explicitly stated what training encompasses.... because doing so empowers you to continue a defense based on instructor-bias....which seems to be the only coherent defense for justifying how inexperienced divers are better suited to train themselves than experienced subject matter experts whose routine work is providing divers with the capabilities send to the actual standards needed.

I mean... seriously... we've all met "that guy" who thinks he can do a better job than the experts.... in sports, in politics, in many fields of endeavor...

Now we see it in tech diving also...

Train yourself, assess yourself, congratulate yourself..... the only drawback is that it's only defensible on the internet - a refuge where you'll never need to prove yourself..

 

[CptTightPants21]

I have been told by a couple of instructors that it takes about 2 years for most divers to go from a rec pass to a tech pass. Some very experienced divers who dive a lot do it in a year or less, some people take a lot longer.

2 years might be a little high. I would say a year is about average for a tech pass and is somewhat controlled by the seasons/diving environment. Up here in the NE you will see people take it during the Summer or Fall, but then winter stops all diving and they will pass/upgrade it next Summer/Fall. I have also seen plenty of people get their provisional and then practice non stop for several weeks and then go back and get their rec or tech pass. A provisional only last 6 months and is tied to the instructor (whereas any instructor may upgrade a rec to a tech pass) so there is generally a bigger push to get it done. Persistence and starting point are the factors for time.

 

[stuartv]

inexperienced divers are better suited to train themselves than experienced subject matter experts

Can you quote a single post that says that? What I have said all along is that for a lot of scuba, a lot of people are capable of learning it without formal training. That doesn't mean "with no education". It means "without ever enrolling in an agency-sanctioned class taught by someone with a card that says Instructor on it."

And it doesn't matter how many times you deny it, what I'm telling you is that you can say you are not a duck, but when you turn right around and walk like one and talk like one, people are going to think you're a duck.

You're supposed to be a professional educator. I'm telling you that the way you are communicating your message is resulting in a different message received than what you claim you are sending. And I'm not the only one who thinks so. Do with that information what you will.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Can you quote a single post that says that? What I have said all along is that for a lot of scuba, a lot of people are capable of learning it without formal training.

Your entire view point is that a person has "some" experience therefore they can correctly teach themselves something else.

You keep accusing us of saying you can NEVER learn ANYTHING on your own, which isn't true. We are saying that having a competent instructor aka objective third party is important to confirm mastery and provide proper assistance, guidance, and reasoning. You seem to be dismissing any competent instructors verification and believe that you, yours, and yourself is the only judge of reality that matters.

 

[DevonDiver]

. . . it doesn't matter how many times you deny it, what I'm telling you is that you can say you are not a duck, but when you turn right around and walk like one and talk like one, people are going to think you're a duck.

Providing you ignore what's been clearly elucidated:

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/posts/7862184/

You're ignoring what doesn't meet your expectations because you have no validity without relying on presumptions stemming from on a naive and stereotypical model.

Nobody can fault you for those assumptions because it's easy to presume that wider patterns must be identical to what you've observed to date.

What you're being informed of... and ignoring... is that your current experience of dive training, and the perceptions that result from it, are flawed.

You were dissatisfied with past training. You made greater progress independantly. That proves, to you, that professional dive training is unjustified or unnecessary.

What's been pointed out is merely that such experiences and presumptions only prove one thing... that you didn't receive effective or acceptable tuition in your limited experience.

In wanting to deny that and having your bubble burst, you seek to accuse others of having bias and agenda... to the length of outright refusing to acknowledge the existence of prior posts.

I'm not denying the importance of post-training practice.... 'reinforcement training'. But it's only effective if what's being reinforced is correct. 'Correct' comes from demonstration, replication and correction. All of which require expertise to happen properly.

All of which have to be repeated sufficiently for 'correct' to occur... and be subject to realistic (and extraordinary) pressured, to ensure functionality under a range of circumstances.

Basic equipment set-up isn't the same as diving competency. Those who don't recognise that reveal their inexperience. Learning how to configure a 'tech rig' on YouTube isn't the same as learning technical diving. But that's what I'm hearing here...

 

[randpchi]

My perspective is this: I have had formal training and that training was professional and effective. I have taken enough classes to make me a safe and responsible recreational diver. I probably will not take more formal training but that does not mean I am finished learning. I want to improve with every dive I make. I listen to the professional divers I come in contact with and ask questions. I observe them in the water and learn from that. I also learn from other divers even if it is "oh boy that was a mistake".
I also learn from scuba board. There are many well thought out opinions posted and I give them all a fair read. Sometimes I think posters get so caught up in trying to win an argument that the basic point is lost.
But it is fun to see