Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[KeithG]

500psi in an AL80 is about 13 cu-ft of air. If those guys got back on the boat still carrying more than 13 cu-ft of air, what's the problem?

There's nothing magic about the number 500.

The "magic" is that the boat operator mandated 500 psi. Their boat, their rules. The tec divers were not able to comply with the rules. Stupid? Incompetent? Negligent? Or just way too important to follow the rules?

P.S. great thread - should it be renamed "i don't need no stinkin trainin"?

(editted to remove unrelated quote that my browser stuck in)

 

[CptTightPants21]

Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that, hasn't been deleted.

I have personally seen people become side mount instructors from several agencies with only a 1 or 2 day course. They were technically certified SM, but there SM (not BM OW, that was pretty good) experience was below what I would consider acceptable for a SM "instructor". They were all very good divers, but I tend to have a higher standard for what should constitute an instructor's level of experience for different certifications--especially something is varied and diver specific as sidemount.

 

[RainPilot]

I have personally seen people become side mount instructors from several agencies with only a 1 or 2 day course. They were technically certified SM, but there SM (not BM OW, that was pretty good) experience was below what I would consider acceptable for a SM "instructor". They were all very good divers, but I tend to have a higher standard for what should constitute an instructor's level of experience for different certifications--especially something is varied and diver specific as sidemount.

I agree completely that there are areas where standards are IMNERHO well below where they need to be.
All agencies suffer to an extent with this. However, just because SOME instructors have low experience doesn't mean that ALL physical diving skills can be learned without any actual instruction. There is only so far that youTube and forums will get you, at some point someone who knows more than you needs to show you where you need to be and help you get there.

I was self-taught for many years on diving skills, I was light years ahead of all the other divers around me at the time. i could frog kick like a demon, I was in trim and I was a buoyancy god.

Then I did an IDC prep for UTD and 30 minutes in the pool and my skills had improved 100%, I really didn't know what i didn't know. From there it took a couple of days to get my skills to the point where I was allowed to start the IDC. So I take offense at being told ALL instructors have no skills and ALL agencies just need a cheque to certify.

For academic theory, I do believe that self-learning from sources like SB and so on are very valuable and often sufficient. For physical skills? Not so much.

 

[KeithG]

I just wanna add one thing before the member of the little SB 'reporters-gang' get a heard attack.
I'm sure someone like Andy is great inrstuctor, but for every guy like Andy there are 20 god aweful, incompetent once out there.

is your guestimate of 20 too low? Do we need an ispo-reed poll on this?

over the years i have formed the opinion that SB attracts the elite divers. people who are invested and passionate about scuba diving. And much more knowledgeable and skilled than average.

as a recreational caribbean vacation diver i get to experience the riff raff divers. the barely competent OW scum (I am just OW) that only want to have a little fun looking at the fishies in nice clear warm water. And that is okay. On average they do great.

IMHO worse than that is the "highly certified" train wrecks purporting to be the best skilled divers (as per their cards).

So far I have only seen 1 rebreather. it was worn by an instructor who was conducting classes in Bonaire. The instructor beat the sh*t out of the reef since he had zero bouyancy control and continually bicycled. After 2 dives we learned to swim the other way since he stirred up so much sand that photos were impossible. i was actually very curious about the rebreather but decided that asking him anything was likely to provide mis-information.

On our last trip i witnessed for the first time an underwater panic attack. you guessed it - a fully certified rescue diver. panicked at about 30 feet in no current super viz (about 70 feet). the diver was so traumatized that they sat for for several days.

</rant>
Cheers...

 

[boulderjohn]

Lots of people have the capacity to learn things without formal instruction. Some people can probably pick up mathematics textbooks and go from algebra through advanced calculus on their own. Similarly, according to Edgar Rice Burroughs in the novel Tarzan of the Apes, after being raised by apes, Tarzan found a trunk full of books left in the jungle by some careless explorer and not only understood what they were for, he learned to read them and speak the words with a perfect Oxford accent. (That may have been fiction, though.)

If you are such a person, congratulations. Others are more likely to need some help.

 

[stuartv]

The "magic" is that the boat operator mandated 500 psi. Their boat, their rules. The tec divers were not able to comply with the rules. Stupid? Incompetent? Negligent? Or just way too important to follow the rules?

P.S. great thread - should it be renamed "i don't need no stinkin trainin"?

(editted to remove unrelated quote that my browser stuck in)

Did the boat operator mandate that? The poster I quoted never said that.

 

[stuartv]

Lots of people have the capacity to learn things without formal instruction.

Totally agree. Lots of people.

And scuba diving is not rocket science. Even decompression diving doesn't require anything tougher than basic arithmetic.

 

[KeithG]

Did the boat operator mandate that? The poster I quoted never said that.

Sorry - I assumed this as every boat I have been on has a set of rules that always includes min pressure and max depth. From my read the OP implied this.

 

[stuartv]

Sorry - I assumed this as every boat I have been on has a set of rules that always includes min pressure and max depth. From my read the OP implied this.

And even if they say that, what does it mean for someone with a pony bottle? If someone comes back with a full 40 plus 200 psi on their back, are they in violation of the rules?

If the point is to ensure people don't drop below a safe margin for error, doesn't a full 40 do that? Would they have been "okay" if they switched to their pony at 500 psi, but otherwise done the exact same dive?

If the point is to limit people's time, then if the boat didn't have to wait on them, isn't that okay, too?

 

[Diving Dubai]

Totally agree. Lots of people.

And scuba diving is not rocket science. Even decompression diving doesn't require anything tougher than basic arithmetic.

The theory for sure,

But the practice skills are somewhat different. Being able to hold a mid water stop to a degree of accuracy, while being task loaded, and priortising the order of the tasks, are some that spring to mind.

These are best practiced and perfected with the assistance of an instructor. Of course some people believe that their skills are good enough, and they may very well be so, while everything is going to plan.

Throw in a few issues and suddenly the flaws in those suppose skills come to light.