Redesigning AOW

[leapfrog]

Thriving? Hardly. Diving is in a no growth situation and has been for some time (or so many say) yet it has a drop out rate that is said to be 80 to 90 percent. Shop owners who take a rather myopic view blame their personal situation on internet sales and that may, in fact, be part of the story. But there is also that huge dropout rate and the lost sales that it represents..

I think a lot of people start diving and then find out it's simply not for them. Where do you get the 80 to 90 percent dropout figure from?

if that could it be stemmed it would result in a very health growth rate. One of the major reasons for that dropout rate many think is inadequate level of training offered to new divers and their lack of comfort with going out and diving on their own. Today's open water diver is not prepared to dive without supervision (nor for that matter is today's AOW diver).

I see no relationship between training levels and people diving on their own. Some recently certified OWDs are happy to buddy up and dive on their own and others prefer to dive with an instructor or DM close by for a while. Any OWD whose training I have had anything to do with IS PREPARED TO DIVE WITHOUT DIRECT SUPERVISION. AOWDs are basically able to do deeper and less self conscious dives.

A solution might be to overhaul our training schemes so that the OW diver was better prepared. An intermediate class should be re-introduced (something along the lines of the old 6 dive no lecture program), and AOW should be returned to about where it was: as a fairly rigorous academic program with six to eight dives.

It's not just a question of being the "right thing" to do. I think that sort of change would reduce the raw numbers coming into diving, but would also reduce the dropout rate and thus increase equipment sales. I Tsuspect that more divers would wind up continuing on, and more divers would purchase more gear, and the industry might be able to move to a healthier state.

I think every certification agency has the right to build the system as they feel fit and the the market decides. Period.

moral questions and pedagogical disagreements aside, I dislike PADI because it has demonstrated, since the early 1980s, a corporate culture is one of short sightedness and a preference for the quick buck at the expense of longer term stability for the industry.

Well there you go, then. You dislike PADI. PADI probably dislikes you too. So you can go off and teach people with other systems you do like and PADI can do what it seems fit. Sound fair?

 

[ucfdiver]

Some recently certified OWDs are happy to buddy up and dive on their own and others prefer to dive with an instructor or DM close by

If a student cannot complete a basic dive within their certification levels with themselves and an equally trained buddy, they need to retake the course and wait to get a c-card. This is what we've been trying to say this whole thread. I don't expect a OW student to dive in strong current, 100+ft depths, at night, or get into decompression, but a basic dive they should easily be able to complete.

Advanced to me would be planning gas reserves for situations where the currents require it, mandatory nitrox, night diving, and low viz navigation. I'd try to develop the course on a level that an average student would need 50 dives or so to acquire the skills to prepare them for the class.

Here's what I would see as a great AOW course (and a course I'm taking this year)
GUE Fundamentals | Global Underwater Explorers

 

[leapfrog]

If a student cannot complete a basic dive within their certification levels with themselves and an equally trained buddy, they need to retake the course and wait to get a c-card. This is what we've been trying to say this whole thread. I don't expect a OW student to dive in strong current, 100+ft depths, at night, or get into decompression, but a basic dive they should easily be able to complete.

I agree with everything you say here, of course.

Advanced to me would be planning gas reserves for situations where the currents require it, mandatory nitrox, night diving, and low viz navigation.

Generally speaking I agree with this too. Not 100% with mandatory nitrox, but the general idea is fine.

I'd try to develop the course on a level that an average student would need 50 dives or so to acquire the skills to prepare them for the class.

Well, this is where we disagree. I think every certification agency should do it how they see fit. Personally, I have no problem with PADI OWDs doing AOWD fairly quickly after the OWD course. Moreover, no two people are thre same, so what is good for person A is not for person B. Adventures in Diving is about getting divers to enjoy the dive, be less self conscious, do other things while diving apart from checking their gauges, prepare them to be able to do some deep dives and get some good navigation skills. I know there is an issue here with "why is all that is not taught at OWD"level. The answer is that for many people just doing OWD is pretty heavy for them. The other reson is that it would not be cost effective. The third reson is that since there are two mandatory AOWD specialties and three optional, not all students will be following the same syllbus. AT THE END OF THE DAY, let the cert agencies decide how they want to educate divers and let the divers decide who they want to be educated by. Most of them (the certification agencies) do a pretty good job.

I think we could open a useful discussion about pre-RESCUE DIVER levels and POST-RESCUE DIVER levels. I look forward to that thread.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Here's what I would see as a great AOW course (and a course I'm taking this year)
GUE Fundamentals | Global Underwater Explorers

Fundamentals ia a great class ... I took it twice ... but it is NOT a substitute for what AOW purports to do.

Your Fundies class will be conducted entirely in 20-30 feet of water ... it will not even attempt to address, or prepare you for deep dives.

It will be conducted entirely during daylight hours ... there's no attempt to train you how to prepare for night or limited vis dives.

There's also no attempt to teach you navigation skills.

What Fundamentals DOES prepare you for is the basic skills and mental approach to take your dive in a direction that ultimately leads to tech diving. It focuses on a specific approach to gear selection, steps to attaining good buoyancy control, propulsion techniques, fundamental gas management, the basics of team diving, and maintaining situational awareness while task loaded. That's what it was originally designed for ... a remedial class for people who wanted to tech dive, but lacked the basic platform to get the training effectively. However GUE attempts to market the class, it does not target people who just want to dive at a recreational level and are looking for basic skills that will let them dive in typical recreational conditions.

AOW and Fundies are apples and oranges ... they are not MEANT to achieve the same things.

And FWIW, I've had Fundies grads in my AOW class who struggled on certain exercises I expect my students to achieve in order to complete the class ... because they'd simply never been exposed to those skills before.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blackwood]

Here's what I would see as a great AOW course (and a course I'm taking this year)
GUE Fundamentals | Global Underwater Explorers

I'd see that as part of a great BOW course, minus the equipment requirements.

1. Demonstrate proficiency in safe diving techniques; this would include pre-dive preparations, in-water activity, and post-dive assessment.
2. Demonstrate awareness of team member location and a concern for safety, responding quickly to visual cues and dive partner needs.
3. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver.
4. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver followed by a slow, direct ascent to the surface.
5. Comfortably demonstrate at least two propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate and/or silty environments.
6. Demonstrate a safe and responsible demeanor throughout all training.
7. Demonstrate proficiency in the ability to deploy a spool and a surface marker.
8. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim.
9. Demonstrate proficiency in underwater communication.
10. Demonstrate basic equipment proficiency [-]and an understanding of the DIR equipment configuration[/-].
11. Demonstrate aptitude in the following open water skills: mask clearing, mask removal and replacement, regulator removal and exchange, long hose deployment.
12. Demonstrate safe ascent and decent procedures.
13. Demonstrate proficiency in executing a valve drill.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'd see that as part of a great BOW course, minus the equipment requirements.

1. Demonstrate proficiency in safe diving techniques; this would include pre-dive preparations, in-water activity, and post-dive assessment.
2. Demonstrate awareness of team member location and a concern for safety, responding quickly to visual cues and dive partner needs.
3. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver.
4. Efficiently and comfortably demonstrate how to donate gas to an out-of-gas diver followed by a slow, direct ascent to the surface.
5. Comfortably demonstrate at least two propulsion techniques that would be appropriate in delicate and/or silty environments.
6. Demonstrate a safe and responsible demeanor throughout all training.
7. Demonstrate proficiency in the ability to deploy a spool and a surface marker.
8. Demonstrate good buoyancy and trim.
9. Demonstrate proficiency in underwater communication.
10. Demonstrate basic equipment proficiency [-]and an understanding of the DIR equipment configuration[/-].
11. Demonstrate aptitude in the following open water skills: mask clearing, mask removal and replacement, regulator removal and exchange, long hose deployment.
12. Demonstrate safe ascent and decent procedures.
13. Demonstrate proficiency in executing a valve drill.

GUE's been trying to introduce an OW class for years ... without success. One of the difficulties is that in order to achieve the goals of the class ... which run pretty much along the lines you've described ... they need a class that runs six to eight weeks and costs on the order of $1500.

It's a tough sell ... however much I might agree with the advantages of teaching that much information in the initial class.

One of the biggest practical impediments is that non-certified divers aren't able to get out and practice on their own. The basic structure of all GUE classes is to set a high bar, show you what you need to do to achieve it, and expect you to get out and practice in order to attain the proficiency needed to pass the class. That's why most people who take a GUE class need to go back for a re-evaluation at some point. You can do that with divers who are already certified, because they have at least the means to get gear and go diving. However, in order to achieve that with uncertified divers requires instructor supervision whenever those divers are in the water to practice ... and that's where that type of class becomes cost-prohibitive.

It's a nice ideal ... but in the real world not very practical. If it were, I have no doubt that GUE would've introduced an OW class at least four or five years ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Blackwood]

It's a tough sell ...

Especially given that people who've never taken dive training don't know what should or should not be included.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Especially given that people who've never taken dive training don't know what should or should not be included.

Exactly so ... it's tough enough trying to explain to people why a 2-day home-study class for $99 won't give them the same quality of education as a $299 2-week class that offers more instructor time and more pool time for practice. They simply don't have a context on which to comprehend the value, and focus solely on the lower investment in time and money ... thinking that since it's the same C-card it must be the same class.

Same goes for AOW ... there are a few instructors here that offer excellent classes. But since they cost more and take longer, fewer people opt to take them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

I think a lot of people start diving and then find out it's simply not for them.

And what is it that makes it "not for them?"

Where do you get the 80 to 90 percent dropout figure from?

Ask any dive shop, the agencies themselves admit to 70% and see that as a problem of crisis proportion.

I see no relationship between training levels and people diving on their own. Some recently certified OWDs are happy to buddy up and dive on their own and others prefer to dive with an instructor or DM close by for a while. Any OWD whose training I have had anything to do with IS PREPARED TO DIVE WITHOUT DIRECT SUPERVISION. AOWDs are basically able to do deeper and less self conscious dives.

It is very rare that anyone will see two brand new OWDs who can confidently go out and dive together, especially in an area were the diving conditions are at all challenging. In point of fact, in those areas that are not tropical paradises I'd extend that remark to most AOWDs today. I have no problem with this per se, but let's stop lying to the student and making them feel inadequate. Let's tell them up front, "You want to dive? I don't expect that you're going to be comfortable on your own until you've completed OW, AOW, Rescue and made a bunch of leadership organized and escorted dives."

And why is the student lied to? And why do standards use terms like "mastery" that are obvious crap? It's that shortsighted quick buck business plan that features jamming the maximum numbers into through the door, loosing money on the course and making a few bucks on grossly overpriced mask fins and snorkel, and rarely a bit more gear most of which winds up in someones garage and then is resold on eBay. It's just plain dumb. But the intelligent and honest solution is only available to a few of us who teach at Universities and such because of the highly effective marketing efforts that are put into that quick buck business plan by agencies that do not even have the best interests of their clients at heart.

I think every certification agency has the right to build the system as they feel fit and the the market decides. Period.

No one said that any does not have the right, I'm just questioning if it is right to do so.

Well there you go, then. You dislike PADI. PADI probably dislikes you too. So you can go off and teach people with other systems you do like and PADI can do what it seems fit. Sound fair?

Actually a lot of the folks that have been at PADI, and that are there now, get along just fine with me, and I with them, this is not personal, it has to do with differing ideas and ideals.

 

[Guba]

Slow down, guys...I miss a day and there are so many posts it took me an hour to catch up! (And I'm taking notes, too..."a good diver is always learning", right?)

Again, I'm so far out of the loop, I can't even relate. OW divers not comfortable with diving on their own? I have no idea what that even means. I certified with two family members (brother-in-law and his wife), and my first ten dives after that were with them, in cold, murky lakes with no DM, instructor, or more experienced diver in sight. I took OW because I was interested in diving with a science team, and I needed to have some experience with deeper dives. I had ample time to get that and make a number of deep dives--some in the ocean, others in freshwater--before the science excursion. I found the OW to be a good course for my needs. Rescue Diver came later.
My point is that I was in no way disappointed with the information/training I got. Now it has been a number of years since I took all those, but it's simply hard to believe that standards have slid as far as some say. My instructors are still in the game, and I can't tell that they've changed the modis operandi at all. But then...I may just be one of those described earlier. I have so little experience that I "don't know how much I don't know". But I can say this...I entered into diving confident in two things: 1) confident in my BASIC skills and 2) confident that I had a lot to learn and that I would seek out the means by which to learn it.