Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

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Are you just going to rewrite the book on what constitutes a "tech" dive?

No, I'm not. But your dive could have turned into a "tech dive" very quickly and you and your buddy were completely ill prepared to deal with it.

Take a dive at 60', you and your buddy run into an issue as your are approaching the end of the dive, takes a few minutes to address, you end up having to donate your octo and you all surface. No problem really, or at least it shouldn't be, you have direct access to the surface and even with a safety stop, you're on the surface in under 5 minutes.

Now your dive to 126', you have a problem at the end of your dive at that depth, you need a few minutes to address it, and....you and your buddy are in deco, no longer a "direct access" to the surface. Worse, did you calculate your SAC rates for that dive, could you have brought you and your buddy to the surface, with a minimal deco obligation on just one of your tanks? With only 980 psi left in your tanks, probably not.

By any definition a dive to 126' with deco is a technical dive. As you go deeper, your recreational dive may turn into a technical dive and even a small pony bottle may not help, especially if everyone's SAC rate is elevated due to stress/task loading.
 
For those of you who dive single tank plus pony for redundancy only, do you 1. Still have two second stages on your back air plus additional on pony?
All that I dive with do as they will not necessarily carry it on shallow dives. In my club all ponies are side slung and not tank mounted. The answer may be different for people who tank mount them.
 
Ya, guilty as charged. But I think you missed my point, the question was "recreational" pony bottles. You're comfortable and squared away to do a 120' dive with a larger bottle and back-up, it may be a "recreational" dive to you, but it sure as heck aint a recreational dive to 99% of the "recreational" divers you see on dive boats in the Keys (or anywhere else).

I've done plenty of dives deep on single Alum 80's and came up within a large safety margin of gas, but I'm not going to state it was a "recreational" dive. I was diving the top of the deep Jupiter ledge (north of Hole in the Wall) with a "recreational" diver, I had to chase him to 140' and pull him off the bottom, he was "lost". Had to rescue a woman 2 years ago on a "recreational" wreck dive with a max depth of 115, should have never been on that dive. I was on a dive club dive not too long ago, full boat, all the divers had the latest equipment, even some BP/wing set ups, after watching them on 2 shallow reefs, not one of them i would feel comfortable taking below 60'.....that's why I stopped diving cattle boats for the most part, too much like a horror show.

My point is that most recreational divers should not be going below 80' (and even that is pushing it for a lot of divers) for the most part, going deeper the rules change and it becomes a gray area of rec/tec. We as tech/experienced divers need to make that clear to new divers. When they ask a question about recreational diving, keep it to recreational profiles. More gear, more task loading. My .02 cents.
Despite the fact that you think many recreational divers are dangerous you suggest that on insta buddy dives we should trust them with our life instead of carrying a pony and being self sufficient. Please explain the logic behind this
 
There may be divers who know how to do all that but still believe carrying a pony is less effort than diving with a conscientious buddy with proper gas planning. Those divers prefer an equipment solution. I and some others prefer a human solution. Different strokes for different folks. To me, having to deal with a pony detracts from the fun. For me, the less gear, the better the solution, i.e., the more I can enjoy the dive. The question I ask myself is what is the least amount of gear I can get away with safely for this type of dive.
I'm the opposite. I like a gear solution, especially if we both have ponies. Makes the dive so much more peaceful and relaxed knowing either of us can go up on our own back up. Sorta like diving in 20 feet of water with a competent buddy (versus 100 ft), you just have less to worry about.
 
All that I dive with do as they will not necessarily carry it on shallow dives. In my club all ponies are side slung and not tank mounted. The answer may be different for people who tank mount them.
That is an important distinction.

If you sling your pony, and have the second stage appropriately constrained by a bungi on the pony bottle, then there should be near zero chance that you will confuse a regulator coming from the pony versus one coming from the primary tank. In this scenario, having 3 second stages (i.e., an octopus on your primary tank), has some advantages.

Conversely, if the diver back mounts the pony and runs the set up with 3 second stages, the complexity, the potential for confusion and the consequences of a freeflow are different. Thus, in this configuration, the desirability of keeping the normal octopus on the primary tank/first stage is reduced (or non-existent).
 
No, I'm not. But your dive could have turned into a "tech dive" very quickly and you and your buddy were completely ill prepared to deal with it.

Take a dive at 60', you and your buddy run into an issue as your are approaching the end of the dive, takes a few minutes to address, you end up having to donate your octo and you all surface. No problem really, or at least it shouldn't be, you have direct access to the surface and even with a safety stop, you're on the surface in under 5 minutes.

Now your dive to 126', you have a problem at the end of your dive at that depth, you need a few minutes to address it, and....you and your buddy are in deco, no longer a "direct access" to the surface. Worse, did you calculate your SAC rates for that dive, could you have brought you and your buddy to the surface, with a minimal deco obligation on just one of your tanks? With only 980 psi left in your tanks, probably not.

By any definition a dive to 126' with deco is a technical dive. As you go deeper, your recreational dive may turn into a technical dive and even a small pony bottle may not help, especially if everyone's SAC rate is elevated due to stress/task loading.
So a tech dive is any dive that could turn into a tech dive should unforeseen circumstances arise? That's an interesting take on the issue.
 
An earlier post suggested a tech dive is only a tech dive if deco is planned. A rec dive going into unplanned deco remains a bungled rec dive by that definition. I would say that if the likelihood of a dive ending up as a deco dive is significant, it should have been planned as a tech dive from the beginning, i.e., allowing for the contingency of a small amount of deco. When your team feels they're done with the dive and everything has gone smoothly, maybe it could still be referred to as a "tech dive" at that moment because you planned in some contingency deco and ended the dive "early." Perhaps that is what @jadairiii is saying? In other words, if the dive plan looks like it could be on the cusp of needing some deco, plan it as a proper deco dive rather than a rec dive with a pony--just include in the plan that the team will likely end the dive "early."
 
Despite the fact that you think many recreational divers are dangerous you suggest that on insta buddy dives we should trust them with our life instead of carrying a pony and being self sufficient. Please explain the logic behind this

More rabbit holes. There is a huge distinction (and you know this) between diving with an insta-buddy in 30' of water and an insta-buddy in a depth that may require a pony bottle to get you to the surface. I dont really believe I need to explain the logic in that. Do I?
 
So a tech dive is any dive that could turn into a tech dive should unforeseen circumstances arise? That's an interesting take on the issue.

@Lorenzoid is correct. But to elaborate on this, there have been other threads that asked the question "what defines an advanced diver?". That is one of the definitions, a diver that knows when they are pushing that envelope and how to react. Problems in 30' of water are much different than problems in 120' of water.

Adding a pony bottle does not instantly make a diver smarter or more capable. 99% of new divers lack the ability to anticipate a problem before it happens. Learn to anticipate problems before you add gear......gear is not a substitute for experience.

 
More rabbit holes. There is a huge distinction (and you know this) between diving with an insta-buddy in 30' of water and an insta-buddy in a depth that may require a pony bottle to get you to the surface. I dont really believe I need to explain the logic in that. Do I?
Typically if I am on vacation in somewhere like Cozumel I will not be diving in 30 ft. of water. Many dives will be 70 ft. and some may go down to 100 ft. for a short time. I think it is you who are going down rabbit holes.
 

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