Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[lexvil]

Great news, the ignore button is easier than ever!

 

[Hartattack]

Inquest: Tragic scuba diver's death was accident

A jury has concluded that the death of a scuba diver following a lesson was accidental.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Dead bolting to the surface from 6m.

Of course ponies kill people too Annual Diving Incident Report

I am glad you brought this up, Ken. So with this example, @tursiops and @boulderjohn what should we do about my ascent rate in my plan? Is it still too long?

 

[James79]

Point 1: Absolutely. I believe you should analyze your tanks before every dive. I don't care if you are a new diver or course director. I have seen this problem happen more than any other problem in the industry, especially with deco/stage/pony bottles.

So I need to borrow an analyzer I'm not trained on to test tanks from a shop that only has air? Or if a new diver goes to a shop that also handles mixed gasses, they should borrow an analyzer, that I repeat; THEY HAVE NO TRAINING FOR (academic or practical), and test it themselves? I fail to see how a person can simultaneously be incompetent to learn a pony, but expected to just figure out analyzing a tank. And if the solution is to have them (the shop employee) analyze it in front of the new diver, then that is a solution.... not a reason they shouldn't have a pony.

Point 2: It is all about control. Can you control your position in the water while task loaded and switching gas IMHO.

A reasonably slung or mounted pony is is no different of a switch than going to an octo (grab second stage, insert in mouth). If they are not competent to switch second stages in their mouth, they should not have passed OW. A pony is not a stage... it typically remains on for the duration. It isn't a tech diving gas switch.... it's grab the second and use it.

Respectfully,

James

 

[Hartattack]

What part of "it doesn't matter how much gas is in the tank if you are unable to access it" do you not get.

You don't trust your buddy?

 

[Hartattack]

So I need to borrow an analyzer I'm not trained on to test tanks from a shop that only has air? Or if a new diver goes to a shop that also handles mixed gasses, they should borrow an analyzer, that I repeat; THEY HAVE NO TRAINING FOR (academic or practical), and test it themselves? I fail to see how a person can simultaneously be incompetent to learn a pony, but expected to just figure out analyzing a tank. And if the solution is to have them (the shop employee) analyze it in front of the new diver, then that is a solution.... not a reason they shouldn't have a pony.

A reasonably slung or mounted pony is is no different of a switch than going to an octo (grab second stage, insert in mouth). If they are not competent to switch second stages in their mouth, they should not have passed OW. A pony is not a stage... it typically remains on for the duration. It isn't a tech diving gas switch.... it's grab the second and use it.

Respectfully,

James

Point 1: I train all of my PADI/RAID open water divers how to analyze gas. Also, GUE's REC 1 course starts their Open Water Divers on 32% and how to analyze gas. It's sad PADI and others haven't gone this way yet, IMHO.

Point 2: I see your point, but I am hesitant with the level of control the diver has been trained in. I think this might be on the instructor and how much buoyancy training has gone into their course. However, spit out bad working reg, replace with pony reg does apply here in an emergency.

 

[grf88]

You don't trust your buddy?

If I don't dive with someone regularly and know how they react when a problem arises the answer would be no. Why worry about that when I can be self sufficient. I dive with a lot of people and many are new divers with little experience. I have also discussed issues in cold water with two people on one first stage. You claim you have never seen a free-flow. I have seen at least two dozen and on a number of occasions the results have not been pretty. These were relatively experienced divers with adequate equipment. Air shares may work great in practice but when the SHTF they do not look pretty.

 

[Hartattack]

If I don't dive with someone regularly and know how they react when a problem arises the answer would be no. Why worry about that when I can be self sufficient. I dive with a lot of people and many are new divers with little experience. I have also discussed issues in cold water with two people on one first stage. You claim you have never seen a free-flow. I have seen at least two dozen and on a number of occasions the results have not been pretty. These were relatively experienced divers with adequate equipment. Air shares may work great in practice but when the SHTF they do not look pretty.

Cool, you do you. I agree to disagree.

 

[Hartattack]

If I don't dive with someone regularly and know how they react when a problem arises the answer would be no. Why worry about that when I can be self sufficient. I dive with a lot of people and many are new divers with little experience. I have also discussed issues in cold water with two people on one first stage. You claim you have never seen a free-flow. I have seen at least two dozen and on a number of occasions the results have not been pretty. These were relatively experienced divers with adequate equipment. Air shares may work great in practice but when the SHTF they do not look pretty.

With that said, let me know when you want to dive sometime next season

 

[tursiops]

let's debate

Not sure why this comes to mind....

 

[CT-Rich]

Why not teach them how to manage the gas they already have and factor in a reserve? This in turn, gives the new diver planning skills and situational awareness. Where switching gas to a pony bottle becomes a problem or a procedure is when the new diver does not have the training to analyze the gas in the pony bottle before each dive. If we are talking about "what if's" with regulator failures and torn O-rings—what if the new diver breathes 100% 02 at depth during an emergency because the shop filled the tank like they normally fill deco bottles by mistake?

If the shop f’s up bottle and fills it with 100% O2? Very possibly the dive boat burns to the waterline when pure O2 comes in contact with non-O2 clean equipment.
Why on Earth do you think this is relevant to THE QUESTION YOU POSED? Are recreational pony bottles completely useless?

You are not required to use them. OTHERS see the value of them and choose to use them. A 13, 20, 30 or 40 ft3 cylinder can be taken underwater. How they are used, generally speaking determines how they are described.

• Pony bottle describes an independent reserve of air that serves the same purpose as MG calculation. Except it is completely independent of any type of primary cylinder failure.
• Deco bottle is gas that is intended to be breathed on ascent to help with off gassing nitrogen. It is part of you gas plan. This is what you deadly 100% O2 bottle COULD be used for. I am not sure where somebody gets a standard pony that is not O2 clean filled with O2, but it’s your hypothetical….
• Stage bottle, the same bottle can be used for used during a dive depending on the dive plan and route.

They are all physically the same cylinder. What you call them is determined by the USE. That you don’t use a pony cylinder does not mean they are useless. Their are a whole bunch of things I don’t take in the water, that doesn’t mean they are useless, it just means I don’t have a use for them.

To your modified question of “should beginning divers sling a pony?” (Nicely placed moving target) They could, but no one is saying they SHOULD.

Peace out…