Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[grf88]

There are two stances on Ponies, some say they are needless, others they are sensible.

My personal experience.
I originally learnt to dive in the Red Sea (90's).
I joined a club in the UK a few months later, after a bit of a checkout dive in the pool. I then had the opportunity to do my first open water dive.

We where at an inland quarry (in February). I was up for a 10m dive as a checkout, and to get to grips with the drysuit, I was using.
Three of the more experienced divers where doing a drop to 35m. Partly as a warm up dive for a trip they where going on, partly to checkout recently serviced kit (including regulators).

I was watching as they entered the water. 10 minutes later, two where on the surface, one was underwater, and the rescue boat was on scene.

What happened?

At around 30m, diver A had a free flow.
He went onto diver B's AAS.
As they started to ascend, his regulators started to free flow.
Diver B switched to his Pony,
Diver A switched to Diver C's AAS.
At around 20m, Diver C's regulators free flowed.
Diver A and Diver C continued to ascend on free flowing regulators.
Diver B followed them to 6m, and stopped, opting to do a few minutes at 6m on the Pony.
Diver A and C ended up on the surface, watching diver B below them.

It transpired that the first stages had all iced up.
Diver B was an ex Navy Diver, and a paraplegic, his ascent was fast at the start, then slow from 10m, with a 5 minute precautionary stop.

Diver A and C had completed 'fast ascents'.

They all went and sat in the Pub for the rest of the day!

It taught me a lesson.

• Things go wrong - even when you do everything right.
• Two divers on one first stage can easily overload it, especially in cold water.
• Cold water and well maintained regulators doesn't mean you are safe.
• A pony, when the **** hits the fan gives you time - not a lot, but possibly enough.
• A free swimming ascent from 30m+ is undesirable.

Until we switched to Twin's the majority of the divers carried a pony. The incident was a good demonstration as to why it's use is a good idea.

By the mid 90's most of us where on twins. But that also related to the depths of the dives and the amount of decompression we where doing.

Gareth

If they had been close to their NDL they may have found themselves sitting in the chamber instead of the pub.

 

[Celt]

There are two stances on Ponies, some say they are needless, others they are sensible.

My personal experience.
I originally learnt to dive in the Red Sea (90's).
I joined a club in the UK a few months later, after a bit of a checkout dive in the pool. I then had the opportunity to do my first open water dive.

We where at an inland quarry (in February). I was up for a 10m dive as a checkout, and to get to grips with the drysuit, I was using.
Three of the more experienced divers where doing a drop to 35m. Partly as a warm up dive for a trip they where going on, partly to checkout recently serviced kit (including regulators).

I was watching as they entered the water. 10 minutes later, two where on the surface, one was underwater, and the rescue boat was on scene.

What happened?

At around 30m, diver A had a free flow.
He went onto diver B's AAS.
As they started to ascend, his regulators started to free flow.
Diver B switched to his Pony,
Diver A switched to Diver C's AAS.
At around 20m, Diver C's regulators free flowed.
Diver A and Diver C continued to ascend on free flowing regulators.
Diver B followed them to 6m, and stopped, opting to do a few minutes at 6m on the Pony.
Diver A and C ended up on the surface, watching diver B below them.

It transpired that the first stages had all iced up.
Diver B was an ex Navy Diver, and a paraplegic, his ascent was fast at the start, then slow from 10m, with a 5 minute precautionary stop.

Diver A and C had completed 'fast ascents'.

They all went and sat in the Pub for the rest of the day!

It taught me a lesson.

• Things go wrong - even when you do everything right.
• Two divers on one first stage can easily overload it, especially in cold water.
• Cold water and well maintained regulators doesn't mean you are safe.
• A pony, when the **** hits the fan gives you time - not a lot, but possibly enough.
• A free swimming ascent from 30m+ is undesirable.

Until we switched to Twin's the majority of the divers carried a pony. The incident was a good demonstration as to why it's use is a good idea.

By the mid 90's most of us where on twins. But that also related to the depths of the dives and the amount of decompression we where doing.

Gareth

There are two stances on Ponies, some say they are needless, others they are sensible.

My personal experience.
I originally learnt to dive in the Red Sea (90's).
I joined a club in the UK a few months later, after a bit of a checkout dive in the pool. I then had the opportunity to do my first open water dive.

We where at an inland quarry (in February). I was up for a 10m dive as a checkout, and to get to grips with the drysuit, I was using.
Three of the more experienced divers where doing a drop to 35m. Partly as a warm up dive for a trip they where going on, partly to checkout recently serviced kit (including regulators).

I was watching as they entered the water. 10 minutes later, two where on the surface, one was underwater, and the rescue boat was on scene.

What happened?

At around 30m, diver A had a free flow.
He went onto diver B's AAS.
As they started to ascend, his regulators started to free flow.
Diver B switched to his Pony,
Diver A switched to Diver C's AAS.
At around 20m, Diver C's regulators free flowed.
Diver A and Diver C continued to ascend on free flowing regulators.
Diver B followed them to 6m, and stopped, opting to do a few minutes at 6m on the Pony.
Diver A and C ended up on the surface, watching diver B below them.

It transpired that the first stages had all iced up.
Diver B was an ex Navy Diver, and a paraplegic, his ascent was fast at the start, then slow from 10m, with a 5 minute precautionary stop.

Diver A and C had completed 'fast ascents'.

They all went and sat in the Pub for the rest of the day!

It taught me a lesson.

• Things go wrong - even when you do everything right.
• Two divers on one first stage can easily overload it, especially in cold water.
• Cold water and well maintained regulators doesn't mean you are safe.
• A pony, when the **** hits the fan gives you time - not a lot, but possibly enough.
• A free swimming ascent from 30m+ is undesirable.

Until we switched to Twin's the majority of the divers carried a pony. The incident was a good demonstration as to why it's use is a good idea.

By the mid 90's most of us where on twins. But that also related to the depths of the dives and the amount of decompression we where doing.

Gareth

Actually divers A and C took the right coarse of action returning to the surface, Diver B should not have stoped his assent and he to should have surfaced if he knew he was not in deco. There’s no such thing as a precautionary stop.

 

[grf88]

Actually divers A and C took the right coarse of action returning to the surface, Diver B should not have stoped his assent and he to should have surfaced if he knew he was not in deco. There’s no such thing as a precautionary stop.

A and C really didn't really have any option, Diver B did and when a safety stop is an option it makes sense to do it.

 

[rsingler]

Diver B should not have stoped his assent and he to should have surfaced if he knew he was not in deco.

Wait, what?
Having had no problems until two divers overbreathed his first stage; having shifted to a normally performing independent source of gas; having made a normal ascent to within 6m (CESA range) of the surface, he is now wrong to pause to offgas after a dive to 30m?
He should also do a rapid ascent and expose himself to increased risk as GF99 blooms in the last 3m of ascent? Despite breathing from normally functioning equipment?

I politely, but strongly disagree.

Safety stops were "precautionary" back in the day. Having SurGF on my Perdix has taught me that a pause for offgassing at 10-15 feet, is a necessary component of a safe dive that has probably prevented a fair bit of DCS. I've since added a slow final ascent. Taking 3 min to go the last 3m shaves 5-6% off my SurGF. That's huge.
A safety stop used to be "the right thing for the wrong reasons". Now I know better and consider it mandatory, gas permitting.
Never been bent; never plan to be. Dives getting more aggressive every year.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I am not sure why deploying a slung pony would be an issue for anyone who has practiced it a couple of times. You are assuming that you are diving with a well trained buddy which with an insta buddy is a very large assumption . There is not only the problem of the donation but how is the buoyancy to be controlled, there can be a large swing going from even 80 ft. to the surface when substantial thermal protection is being worn. What do you suggest if you are travelling to a remote destination and do not have a trusted buddy with you, play golf?

If you wish to call it an assumption, we can, but I prefer calling it another school of thought. They simply don’t do insta-buddies. I would never travel to dive with people of unknown training/philosophy as buddies. And it does take more practice—years, sometimes. I can’t imagine anything being ingrained in muscle memory after practicing “a couple of times.” I have probably done hundreds of practice donations, learning to manage buoyancy and body position, etc., and there is still room for improvement in my technique. I’m not saying a pony is more difficult or less difficult to ensure successful deployment; only that there are some different advantages and disadvantages to consider. As I said in reference to trips like those you said you have taken, because I keep the bar so high (some may say needlessly), I may skip dive opportunities that others would take. Gotta have the equipment (that in some cases others may believe is overkill) and gotta have the buddy with reasonably similar training for me to get out there.

 

[grf88]

If you wish to call it an assumption, we can, but I prefer calling it another school of thought. They simply don’t do insta-buddies. I would never travel to dive with people of unknown training/philosophy as buddies. And it does take more practice—years, sometimes. I can’t imagine anything being ingrained in muscle memory after practicing “a couple of times.” I have probably done hundreds of practice donations, learning to manage buoyancy and body position, etc., and there is still room for improvement in my technique. I’m not saying a pony is more difficult or less difficult to ensure successful deployment; only that there are some different advantages and disadvantages to consider. As I said in reference to trips like those you said you have taken, because I keep the bar so high (some may say needlessly), I may skip dive opportunities that others would take. Gotta have the equipment (that in some cases others may believe is overkill) and gotta have the buddy with reasonably similar training for me to get out there.

I have no argument with the way you choose to dive, just that not everybody is of the same mindset and for them a pony can be a useful choice. I will dive with almost anybody once but will only do so if I am self sufficient. I also do dives with trusted buddies which could be best described as same day same ocean but we do keep an eye out for each other for things like entanglement but not for air emergencies as we are not going to be within a few feet of each other.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Until we switched to Twin's the majority of the divers carried a pony. The incident was a good demonstration as to why it's use is a good idea.

I just wanted to add, for the record so to speak, that earlier in either this thread or the one that inspired this one, I agreed cold-water rec dives may be an example of a type of diving where ponies sound reasonable to me. I don’t know anything about diving in very cold water and would get appropriate training before I attempted it. A twinset might be more in line with my current training, but I could see how others might prefer a pony.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I have no argument with the way you choose to dive, just that not everybody is of the same mindset and for them a pony can be a useful choice. I will dive with almost anybody once but will only do so if I am self sufficient. I also do dives with trusted buddies which could be best described as same day same ocean but we do keep an eye out for each other for things like entanglement but not for air emergencies as we are not going to be within a few feet of each other.

And I have no argument with the way you choose to dive. I believe we’re all just trying to describe the different alternatives—different schools of thought, as I put it. You are effectively a solo or “self-sufficient diver.” Totally different animal from buddy or team diving. As I understand it, ponies are near standard equipment for solo rec divers.

 

[Celt]

Wait, what?
Having had no problems until two divers overbreathed his first stage; having shifted to a normally performing independent source of gas; having made a normal ascent to within 6m (CESA range) of the surface, he is now wrong to pause to offgas after a dive to 30m?
He should also do a rapid ascent and expose himself to increased risk as GF99 blooms in the last 3m of ascent? Despite breathing from normally functioning equipment?

I politely, but strongly disagree.

Safety stops were "precautionary" back in the day. Having SurGF on my Perdix has taught me that a pause for offgassing at 10-15 feet, is a necessary component of a safe dive that has probably prevented a fair bit of DCS. I've since added a slow final ascent. Taking 3 min to go the last 3m shaves 5-6% off my SurGF. That's huge.
A safety stop used to be "the right thing for the wrong reasons". Now I know better and consider it mandatory, gas permitting.
Never been bent; never plan to be. Dives getting more aggressive every year.

The dive was turned before reaching planning depth 35m. No bottom time and no deco. All 3 divers should have returned to the surface as all 3 had a failure in their primary gas. Diver B by making an unnecessary stop at 6 m put himself in danger as his buddies could not go to his assistant. He also put his buddies in danger as he didn’t know if they needed assistant.

 

[Celt]

A and C really didn't really have any option, Diver B did and when a safety stop is an option it makes sense to do it.

Diver B should not have split from the group all 3 should have stayed together, he made an unnecessary stop. If I was a cynic I might even think the pony lead to a bad decision.