Recent OOA incident in Cozumel, and questions for the experts

[Bubbletrubble]

I have actually been on a dive where there were 2 dive masters with under 80 dives total for the life time. Thats inexperienced divers though they really did give it their best foot forward. I got to help them out a little keep up with the group and they were appreciative. I just loved helping out 2 attractive DMs

I prefer to bring my own attractive DM with me on vacation. She's always happy to pay her own way.

 

[Mike]

I just wanted to comment in regard to this

With this in mind a dive master leading a tour of say 8 divers. If he went diver to diver checking everyones air and well being he would not have much of a tour simply by the amount of time it would consume to constantly monitor the air consumption.

An experienced DM doesn't need to physically check everybodies air or keep his eyes peeled exactly the same on everyone in the group. An experienced DM will instantly evaluate who's who in the water within a few moments of a dive and start mentally categorizing you into who needs to be watched, who doesn't, who he's not sure of yet.

This whole incident had many red flags that even the dumbest DM would have had a hard time not putting two and two together and understand that it might be beneficial to put some extra attention on those two during the dive, if he cared.

The puking on the side of the boat and the knowledge that they are newer divers is a major red flag though however not a 100 percent guarantee that they are scared. It could have been the sea sickness but it definately was something to take note on. Id of probably started a suttle conversation to see if they were really up to the dive myself.

That's one of red flags, the trouble descending right off the bat was another. Again, not that every DM is an ideal one or it's their job to baby sit. However as human beings I hope any DM has a basic level of care and feels some responsibility to protect the lives of anyone in his group. As a diver and not a DM I feel that way whenever diving and I'm sure many of us do and will look out for another diver if we see they might be over their heads.

But regardless a good DM in my opinion would have seen the obvious signs right off the bat of the dive that he had in his group two that needed some watching over and acted appropriately to do so.

 

[Karibelle]

But regardless a good DM in my opinion would have seen the obvious signs right off the bat of the dive that he had in his group two that needed some watching over and acted appropriately to do so.

Agree with you on this, Mike.

 

[k ellis]

I just wanted to comment in regard to this



An experienced DM doesn't need to physically check everybodies air or keep his eyes peeled exactly the same on everyone in the group. An experienced DM will instantly evaluate who's who in the water within a few moments of a dive and start mentally categorizing you into who needs to be watched, who doesn't, who he's not sure of yet.

This whole incident had many red flags that even the dumbest DM would have had a hard time not putting two and two together and understand that it might be beneficial to put some extra attention on those two during the dive, if he cared.



That's one of red flags, the trouble descending right off the bat was another. Again, not that every DM is an ideal one or it's their job to baby sit. However as human beings I hope any DM has a basic level of care and feels some responsibility to protect the lives of anyone in his group. As a diver and not a DM I feel that way whenever diving and I'm sure many of us do and will look out for another diver if we see they might be over their heads.

But regardless a good DM in my opinion would have seen the obvious signs right off the bat of the dive that he had in his group two that needed some watching over and acted appropriately to do so.

Very true which is why I never cast any blame in the situation one way or the other. It was really more of an unfortunate chain of events that luckily ended without known ramifications. You are also correct in that even when I was not going foward with my dive master I was experienced enough to know to keep an eye on everyone in the group even when it was not my responsibility.

People sum up dive accidents by saying they were not a dive master so if someone had an accident they had no responsibility to react. This may or may not be true and not something I am going to debate but what I will say is even if you were an open water dive on dive number 5 and witness another diver dive or become criticaly injured in a dive accident every one looses. You may not be sued and you may not have no charges filed because you did nothing wrong at all but you still have to live with the memory of what you witnessed.

I guess me being in law enforcement gives me a totaly diffrent view on things but I just believe in brother and sister love of mankind. I see a fellow man or woman in trouble even minor trouble and its within my ability to assist someone before it becomes a life or death problem I feel obligated to help its just my nature and it sounds like the O.P. has a great value of life instilled as well.

I do admit though this was a tough situation even for an experienced dive master as he went to the surface with one of 2 people and while there the other experienced a panic and bolted there is very little a lone dive master can do when hes got 2 potential emergencies on his hand at the same time.

 

[CoreyHodges]

Ultimately I believe the divers are responsible. However, if I were a dive op and DM for that matter, I would want proof of my divers' experience. I have been at resorts where I dove with buddies I didnt know (I was the only diver in my travel group.) And had to show my log book. And for that Im thankful because if they did it to me, they did it to my buddy. I would not want to go down with someone unqualified like this. But c'mon people! Know your stuff and how to NOT kill yourself!

 

[ozzydamo]

The *dive boat operator* shouldn't of let OW licensed divers do a dive below 18m(54ft). The DM should of checked what license they have and talked to them/briefed about their prior experience in diving (do they look physically fit? are they intelligent? are they poor swimmers?).
If you are the leader of a dive, you keep an eye on the most vulnerable divers on the dive, if you lead a dive, don't take diver who are not qualified enough to do that!

This oversight has ruined the couples holiday(MAYBE, ABOUT DIVING EVER AGAIN) by the sounds of it- OW not AOW!!!!!!!! Deep dive is a compulsory specialty in the AOW course.

 

[Firefyter]

The *dive boat operator* shouldn't of let OW licensed divers do a dive below 18m(54ft). The DM should of checked what license they have and talked to them/briefed about their prior experience in diving (do they look physically fit? are they intelligent? are they poor swimmers?).
If you are the leader of a dive, you keep an eye on the most vulnerable divers on the dive, if you lead a dive, don't take diver who are not qualified enough to do that!

This oversight has ruined the couples holiday(MAYBE, ABOUT DIVING EVER AGAIN) by the sounds of it- OW not AOW!!!!!!!! Deep dive is a compulsory specialty in the AOW course.

As we've said before, there are plenty of OW divers that are qualified to do deep dives, and plenty of AOW divers who are not. It's not about the card, it's about the individual diver.

 

[BrianKon]

Hello spartan,

I think most of what I would have said as already been stated. But I just wanted to say good job to you and your buddy. There was obviously no way for the DM to handle both situations and the confidence in your abilities to help a diver in distress should be commended.

Brian

 

[Sinbad Scuba]

The divers are primarily responsible. As a PADI instructor, I frequently repeat the refrain, "do not dive outside of your experience or training. New PADI Open Water divers are NOT certified to dive below 60 feet or 18 meters. They should know this and consider it as part of the dive plan. Divers are responsible for planning their dive and diving their plan. The dive operation should, for their own protection from liability, should have asked how many dives they had and provided dive opportunities compatible with their experience.

I dont think the DM has much responsibility beyond leading the group.

I agree the buddy should have accompanied the OOA diver to the surface. When one diver aborts, both divers abort.

I am not sure I agree with bubbletrouble saying you should not have stopped the buddy from bolting. Proper buddy procedure would have been for her to accompany her buddy to the surface. Why didnt the OOA person go to his buddy and user her octo? Why did he use the DM's? How far apart were the buddies? Too far to be good buddies and help one another?

One of the toughest parts of diving for me to get across to my students is that it is a team sport - buddy teams. Proper buddy procedures could have prevent the entire incident. Buddies check each others air and are close enough to assist in an emergency.

 

[discokat]

I find this a little unnerving about how many people are just so willing to lay the blame on new divers, pretty much wholesale. These are new divers doing their first open water dive. They are almost certainly going to be either nervous or overconfident, not many falling in between. Having only received OW certification they are probably not very aware of the fact they will be using significantly more air at 80-90 feet as they would at 40-50 feet.

I have also seen, and been in myself, situations where some concern was expressed either about a dive or one's own abilities and being told "don't worry about it". I specifically recall 2 situations where I told the dive operator, and then my dive guide, that both my wife and myself were new divers and being told not to worry about it, then my dive guide just up and left us. One went off to do her lobster hunting for dinner while the other led off the group while we were doing a weight check. I understand the dive guide helped the one newbie but he seems to have left the other on her own. Not smart.

I think also there are a few here that might be more adventurous than the run of the mill diver, especially those who are new to the sport. These type of new divers tend to put an inordinate amount of trust in the professionals guiding them, often to their own detriment. I think more blame should be placed on both the dive operator for allowing these new divers to go with an experienced group on a deep dive (which I find more dangerous than a drift dive, imo) and the dive guide not to signal the dive buddy to surface as well, and make sure the dive buddy acknowledged the signal. He is the guide. He is supposed to be guiding the group. A group is only as strong as the weakest members. If the rest of the group was as experienced as was stated then they shouldn't have been too troubled by having to go without the guide (just really losing the opportunity to spot some interesting things since they should know where they are going have been briefed).

I've gone without dive guides on several drift dives, or wandered off from the guide, and its no big deal. You are all going in pretty much the same direction. On a deep dive I tend to be more circumspect. I dive extra cautious myself since I'm with my wife and I am overly concerned about her well being. If it was just me I'd be considerably more adventurous but I'm more experienced in life so I look out for her. From my limited view I would think the male newbie was a bit overconfident (he was diving deeper than the rest) while the female was less sure of herself. I would also ask if these new divers had dive computers or watches. If not, how were they gauging their time below other than by air consumption or watching the dive guide? If by air consumption it is likely the diver had little to no clue how much more air he was consuming as compared to a dive for the same time at a shallower depth, so was checking his gauge less often than he should have been.

I think far too often in this Age of Liability people are too quick to throw the blame solely on those who really don't know better than to place it on those who are actually in the position of responsibility towards their clients.

Personally, if it was me and I was going on my first open water dive I wouldn't have gone on that particular trip but so many people really don't know better (they are naive) and believe what people tell them until the proverbial sh-- hits the fan. By then it is often too late. I bet the poor girl will never dive again and all because her buddy was arrogant and she was kept from doing what she was taught, which is stick with her dive buddy. YOU NEVER LEAVE YOUR WINGMAN MAVERICK! On every single Lesson for Life I've read in one magazine that is the number one reason someone dies.

I'm not saying the newbies weren't at fault. They certainly were. But I believe a certain amount of blame should be placed on the planner and guide for take more risks with neophytes than they should have. Thankfully they all got to live and learn rather than another tragedy under the sea.