Recent OOA incident in Cozumel, and questions for the experts

[oly5050user]

Its totally the divers fault..People have to understand that they are responsible for their own decisions. A 90' drift dive in Coz is no big deal for someone who is comfortable in the water.Its warm with great visibility. A dm leads a group and a dm takes up the rear of the group.To me that is good control There is a briefing before every dive informing divers of type of terrain and depth of dive. No excuse if divers choose to participate,if uncomfortable they can sit out the dive or PAY for a private guide..If the divers are so messed up and want to do the dive they should hire a private instr/dm to escourt them.Last week I saw a group that had a female diver in the water @ 60'.The private dm held her hand with his right hand and had his left hand on her tank valve.WTF is this sh*t??She bicycled kicked in the current accomplishing nothing.The dm controled her buoyancy and direction.She should not have been in the water,but at least she had enough sense to hire and PAY for a private guide to keep her relatively safe.

 

[B_D]

Oly, you are entitled to your opinion, but it was not "totally the divers fault". First of all there was only 1 DM on the dive, and he was in the lead position - there was no second DM at the back. Secondly it was obvious to all before the dive that the 2 new divers were in over their heads and had no idea what to expect - it was their 1st dive after certification, 1st ocean dive, 1st boat dive, 1st dive in Cozumel. Then as they entered the water they had trouble descending and the DM had to hold their hands to get them down. And again once they were down with the rest of us the DM only asked them about their pressure once, about 10 minutes into the dive, then ignored them the rest of the dive, while they were flailing around and burning air. Anyone could see that this was a bad situation in the making - which is why me and my buddy kept an eye on them during the dive - because we could see the DM was not, and we were concerned as human beings. I know the DM's responsibility is not to baby sit them, but in my mind at least he has a moral obligation to keep a closer eye on them. I don't expect the DM to keep tabs on me, but absolutely he should have been watching the newbies closer.

 

[oly5050user]

We are going to have to agree to disagree.After 40 years of being in this industry as an instructor and many thousands of dives , against your less than 100 dives, I have to insist that it was the divers fault. A divemaster is not a nanny ,there to watch over the divers.A dm is there to guide you to the dive site and perhaps point out intesting features that a person may miss.IF an emergency occurs hopefully the dm is close enogh to assist if the persons BUDDY does not.The divers BUDDy is the 1st person the diver is to go to if there is a incident.Your buddy opts to go to surface due to low air and you continue to dive,then you are on your own.Solo.. People are certified as divers, which means they know that they are to watch their depth and time and to know what their limitations are.Being certified means you can plan and conduct a dive indepently within your experience and training. Being new does not disqualify them from knowing this and if they cannot plan and execute a dive independently then perhaps they should not be certified at all and only dive as discover scuba participants and have a pro with them constantly monitoring them. If they feel uncomfortable about the dive either sit it out on the boat or hire and pay a pro..Take responsibility for yourselves..If they cannot do that simple skill of monitoring their air/depth/time then perhaps they should not dive or only dive with a PRO and always pay for the pro to dive with them.A dm leading a group is not responsible for a sole individual that chose to participate in the dive..If a person wants that kind of care then they can pay for it.In the Florida Keys that is exactly what has happened and become a standard pratice there. If a diver wishes to dive deeper than 60' there they pay whatever it is (probably $50.=$75.) to have a pro escourt them for the dive.Many of these same ow divers complain about the fee charged and are the same ones who complain if they are not charged and expect their hand to be held thru a dive.Cannot have it both ways.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We are going to have to agree to disagree.After 40 years of being in this industry as an instructor and many thousands of dives , against your less than 100 dives, I have to insist that it was the divers fault. A divemaster is not a nanny ,there to watch over the divers.A dm is there to guide you to the dive site and perhaps point out intesting features that a person may miss.IF an emergency occurs hopefully the dm is close enogh to assist if the persons BUDDY does not.The divers BUDDy is the 1st person the diver is to go to if there is a incident.Your buddy opts to go to surface due to low air and you continue to dive,then you are on your own.Solo.. People are certified as divers, which means they know that they are to watch their depth and time and to know what their limitations are.Being certified means you can plan and conduct a dive indepently within your experience and training. Being new does not disqualify them from knowing this and if they cannot plan and execute a dive independently then perhaps they should not be certified at all and only dive as discover scuba participants and have a pro with them constantly monitoring them. If they feel uncomfortable about the dive either sit it out on the boat or hire and pay a pro..Take responsibility for yourselves..If they cannot do that simple skill of monitoring their air/depth/time then perhaps they should not dive or only dive with a PRO and always pay for the pro to dive with them.A dm leading a group is not responsible for a sole individual that chose to participate in the dive..If a person wants that kind of care then they can pay for it.In the Florida Keys that is exactly what has happened and become a standard pratice there. If a diver wishes to dive deeper than 60' there they pay whatever it is (probably $50.=$75.) to have a pro escourt them for the dive.Many of these same ow divers complain about the fee charged and are the same ones who complain if they are not charged and expect their hand to be held thru a dive.Cannot have it both ways.

Oh please don't pull that "my thousands of dives" argument ... it's OK to disagree, but the "appeal to authority" approach is just not a legitimate way to do it.

I'm currently in the process of creating an article based on a similar situation that ultimately led to a fatality ... one that occurred on a young lady's first post-OW dive. And although there were many opportunities along the way to that accident where she could have ... and possibly should have ... decided that the dive was too much for her, at each one of those opportunities someone with more experience and in many cases more authority reassured her it would be OK. It's human nature when someone really wants to do something to put great credence in the assurances of people with "thousands of dives" ... and I am convinced that in most cases we are doing new divers a disservice when we give those assurances.

Yes, it's important for divers to develop a good sense of judgment and take responsibility for their dive ... but in order to do so you need to have a context around which to base those judgments. That comes with dives. In our current market ... where divers are "certified" after only four or five dives (depending on agency), one simply hasn't had the opportunity to develop that context. We hand these people a C-card and tell them they're certified to dive independent of supervision ... but are they qualified, really?

Divemasters should not be nannies ... that's not good for either the new diver or the rest of the accompanying clients. But rather than giving blanket reassurances, divemasters need to do a better job sometimes of reading the signs of stress or unpreparedness that leads to a bad situation and giving a diver a frank opinion of whether or not they should even be attempting the dive. New divers tend to put great pressure on themelves to attempt dives that they are patently unprepared for because they don't want to ruin someone else's good time. I prefer letting them know that the easiest way to ruin my good time is to put me in a position where I have to rescue them ... or worse yet, recover their body. Rather than saying "don't worry about it", it would be better to encourage them to develop a sense of when worrying about it is exactly the right thing to do ... and learning that sometimes the responsible thing to do is say "not today" and sit the dive out.

Too often, those of us with "thousands of dives" have long since forgotten what it felt like to be that new diver ... and in that respect, perhaps the person with "less than 100 dives" is in a better position to put the dive into a better context, with respect not to what the diver should be doing, but in terms of how that diver's appehensions and ignorance led them to decide to go ahead with a dive that their inner voice was telling them not to do ... and this often leads to less than desireable consequences ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[oly5050user]

Grateful diver; you seem to agree with me that no one wants a nanny state here. I am stating that a certified diver must use their own judgement as to make a dive if it is outside their comfort zone.If it is outside their comfort zone then they either sit it out or hire a pro,and pay him/her to make the dive. Do not want to pay for a pro and uncomfortable about the dive,,then sit that dive out..Do not expect a Dm who maybe conducting a group dive to be responsible for their personal safety. I am sick and tired of people placing blame on others for their own mistakes. This is why the damned lawyers and insurance companies are getting rich off us.
They are trained to be ow certified divers.That means they are supposed to be able to take correct actions and think for themselves. If they cannot do that then maybe they should not be ow certified and just "scuba certified" where they have many restrictions and cannot dive without a pro escorting them. If student can complete all ow required skills but shows me inability to be mature enough to use proper judgement for their level of training and experience, I only would issue them "scuba certification"..not ow certification.Why put them and or their buddies at risk by giving them full ow certification?
Oh, and I do very well remember being new where I called off a dive when I was new and did not feel right about the conditions that day and time. I have absolutely no issues if someone calls a dive off. I respect them more when they call off a dive than when they try to push thru one they are uncomfortable about. There are bold divers and old divers.There are NO OLD BOLD DIVERS.

 

[InTheDrink]

Bob, as always your position is very sane, realistic and well presented.

I 100% believe that divers should be completely independent and 100 % responsible for themselves.

However that's not how lots of us learn to dive today. It certainly wasn't how I did. It may be a sad state of affairs but it is the state of affairs. It's reality and you can wash your hands of it if you want to but it's not terribly humane nor indeed sensible.

Any DM worth his or her salt will understand that many newly minted (and some not so newly minted) divers are not safe to dive unsupervised. This is the world we live in today. You can wish it wasn't all you like but it is.

This being the case, surely a 'not my problem, they're certified' approach is simply immoral.

Any good pro should be up to this challenge of keeping an eye out for noobs. Those that aren't probably aren't suited to be in their position as clearly have wrong attitude.

All this said, I would of course urge every diver to be competent and independent. But until that day comes (I.e. Never) those with more experience, skill and in this case, professionalism, should look after their fellow divers with humanity and care. If nothing else, they do after all, pay the bills.

My 0.02.

J

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Grateful diver; you seem to agree with me that no one wants a nanny state here. I am stating that a certified diver must use their own judgement as to make a dive if it is outside their comfort zone.If it is outside their comfort zone then they either sit it out or hire a pro,and pay him/her to make the dive. Do not want to pay for a pro and uncomfortable about the dive,,then sit that dive out..Do not expect a Dm who maybe conducting a group dive to be responsible for their personal safety. I am sick and tired of people placing blame on others for their own mistakes. This is why the damned lawyers and insurance companies are getting rich off us.
They are trained to be ow certified divers.That means they are supposed to be able to take correct actions and think for themselves. If they cannot do that then maybe they should not be ow certified and just "scuba certified" where they have many restrictions and cannot dive without a pro escorting them. If student can complete all ow required skills but shows me inability to be mature enough to use proper judgement for their level of training and experience, I only would issue them "scuba certification"..not ow certification.Why put them and or their buddies at risk by giving them full ow certification?
Oh, and I do very well remember being new where I called off a dive when I was new and did not feel right about the conditions that day and time. I have absolutely no issues if someone calls a dive off. I respect them more when they call off a dive than when they try to push thru one they are uncomfortable about. There are bold divers and old divers.There are NO OLD BOLD DIVERS.

In some cases you won't know you're uncomfortable about the dive until you're down there. In some cases you're going to convince yourself that you're just being a wuss, and spoiling your dive buddy's good time. In some cases you're going to believe the dive pro who assures you that the dive is "easy" (because for them it is).

Maturity in diving is the same as maturity in life ... you develop it through experience.

I had to call off a class dive just two days ago, because I got to the dive site and conditions weren't suitable ... recent weather had reduced visibility to less than two feet. The student showed up about 20 minutes after me, and was fully prepared to dive. When I told her we were not diving, she looked relieved ... she'd been very apprehensive about doing the dive, but didn't want to say anything because she thought I'd be upset with her. We had a long talk about listening to your inner voice, and not being afraid about what other people think. This wasn't a new diver ... she's just new to our area and dive conditions. So under different circumstances ... or with a different dive buddy, she would've been more inclined to say "not today" ... but not under these circumstances.

I have one significant disagreement with what your wrote ... I don't think any diver is "mature enough to use proper judgment" after only four OW checkout dives. What they have is a limited experience, under very controlled conditions ... the "kernel" around which to begin to develop that maturity. Judgment comes through the context of experience.

I don't, personally, understand why so many new divers are encouraged to go to Cozumel. The dives tend to run deeper than the 60-foot recommended maximum depth, they're mostly drift dives, and the diver has not been exposed to those conditions at all. Where is this "maturity" supposed to have come from? The tendency is for this new diver to put pressure on themselves to take a "leap of faith" that goes well beyond the scope of their training.

Should it be this way? Of course not ... but that's what it is. Is it the diver's fault for putting themselves in this position? Partly. But it's also the fault of the person who sold them the trip ... and the person who put them on that site, knowing that it's going to expose them to conditions that are NOT similiar to those in which they were trained.

What we have here is a conflict of interest ... diver safety vs dive industry profit.

What we ended up with in this case was ... if I'm reading the OP correctly ... someone who didn't dive again for the rest of the week, and probably hasn't been underwater since. And we wonder why there's a 70+% dropout rate in diving? Well ... there's a perfect example why.

Fortunately, in this case it didn't result in a significant injury ... or worse.

To my concern, it's a pretty damned stupid way to promote the industry. Everything I've read about this incident suggest to me that this couple had neither the skills nor the background for this dive ... nor, since it was their first experience post-OW, did they have the ability to recognize that was the case.

I won't say that's all their fault ... we, as an industry, need to do a better job of preparing these folks before sending them off on their own with the expectation that they'll have developed adequate judgment to know when they're in over their head. Four dives doing mask flood and clear while kneeling on a platform just ain't gonna get that job done ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ozzydamo]

Grateful diver; you seem to agree with me that no one wants a nanny state here. I am stating that a certified diver must use their own judgement as to make a dive if it is outside their comfort zone.If it is outside their comfort zone then they either sit it out or hire a pro,and pay him/her to make the dive. Do not want to pay for a pro and uncomfortable about the dive,,then sit that dive out..Do not expect a Dm who maybe conducting a group dive to be responsible for their personal safety. I am sick and tired of people placing blame on others for their own mistakes. This is why the damned lawyers and insurance companies are getting rich off us.
They are trained to be ow certified divers.That means they are supposed to be able to take correct actions and think for themselves. If they cannot do that then maybe they should not be ow certified and just "scuba certified" where they have many restrictions and cannot dive without a pro escorting them. If student can complete all ow required skills but shows me inability to be mature enough to use proper judgement for their level of training and experience, I only would issue them "scuba certification"..not ow certification.Why put them and or their buddies at risk by giving them full ow certification?
Oh, and I do very well remember being new where I called off a dive when I was new and did not feel right about the conditions that day and time. I have absolutely no issues if someone calls a dive off. I respect them more when they call off a dive than when they try to push thru one they are uncomfortable about. There are bold divers and old divers.There are NO OLD BOLD DIVERS.

But there is plenty of OLD BALD DIVERS.

 

[ozzydamo]

In some cases you won't know you're uncomfortable about the dive until you're down there. In some cases you're going to convince yourself that you're just being a wuss, and spoiling your dive buddy's good time. In some cases you're going to believe the dive pro who assures you that the dive is "easy" (because for them it is).

Maturity in diving is the same as maturity in life ... you develop it through experience.

I had to call off a class dive just two days ago, because I got to the dive site and conditions weren't suitable ... recent weather had reduced visibility to less than two feet. The student showed up about 20 minutes after me, and was fully prepared to dive. When I told her we were not diving, she looked relieved ... she'd been very apprehensive about doing the dive, but didn't want to say anything because she thought I'd be upset with her. We had a long talk about listening to your inner voice, and not being afraid about what other people think. This wasn't a new diver ... she's just new to our area and dive conditions. So under different circumstances ... or with a different dive buddy, she would've been more inclined to say "not today" ... but not under these circumstances.

I have one significant disagreement with what your wrote ... I don't think any diver is "mature enough to use proper judgment" after only four OW checkout dives. What they have is a limited experience, under very controlled conditions ... the "kernel" around which to begin to develop that maturity. Judgment comes through the context of experience.

I don't, personally, understand why so many new divers are encouraged to go to Cozumel. The dives tend to run deeper than the 60-foot recommended maximum depth, they're mostly drift dives, and the diver has not been exposed to those conditions at all. Where is this "maturity" supposed to have come from? The tendency is for this new diver to put pressure on themselves to take a "leap of faith" that goes well beyond the scope of their training.

Should it be this way? Of course not ... but that's what it is. Is it the diver's fault for putting themselves in this position? Partly. But it's also the fault of the person who sold them the trip ... and the person who put them on that site, knowing that it's going to expose them to conditions that are NOT similiar to those in which they were trained.

What we have here is a conflict of interest ... diver safety vs dive industry profit.

What we ended up with in this case was ... if I'm reading the OP correctly ... someone who didn't dive again for the rest of the week, and probably hasn't been underwater since. And we wonder why there's a 70+% dropout rate in diving? Well ... there's a perfect example why.

Fortunately, in this case it didn't result in a significant injury ... or worse.

To my concern, it's a pretty damned stupid way to promote the industry. Everything I've read about this incident suggest to me that this couple had neither the skills nor the background for this dive ... nor, since it was their first experience post-OW, did they have the ability to recognize that was the case.

I won't say that's all their fault ... we, as an industry, need to do a better job of preparing these folks before sending them off on their own with the expectation that they'll have developed adequate judgment to know when they're in over their head. Four dives doing mask flood and clear while kneeling on a platform just ain't gonna get that job done ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Operators that look for turnover and wow factor over staying inside the comfort zone of the newbies, have a lot to do with the high attrition rate- often frightening experience aren't spoken about and that person just never returns to the water.....which is a real tragedy for Scuba Diving as a sport, as it creates rumours of diving being dangerous and elitist....
Like people who brag about how many dives their done! Like WGAF!

 

[ozzydamo]

As we've said before, there are plenty of OW divers that are qualified to do deep dives, and plenty of AOW divers who are not. It's not about the card, it's about the individual diver.

On a first time basis never knowing these divers before-YES! it is all about the card! that's how "the card" came into existence.
For mine, getting your deep specialty before your AOW is putting the cart before the horse and Padi would be wise to change some of the specialties to only attainable after the AOW card attainment.
But that's beside the point of the original post which had made it clear they where doing their first ocean dive and didn't have the deep specialty card in their decks- green, raw prawns and newb.
A professional and conservative attitude is required by operators and instructors for the inexperienced divers or insurance costs will make it even more expensive to participate in. If your an instructor you should enjoy the dive after you fore file your role as a professional first and foremost, otherwise you should get a different job and dive solely for pleasure, like I do.