Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[victorzamora]

Wouldn't want to criticize you victorzamora but when diving a Razor in the same way as the SMS75 of course they do not feel much different.

I dive an modified Razor 2 and started without owning my own tanks in Germany.
That meant mostly steel 10 Liter with a valve that is not very good at holding a bungee and only available one sided - for more than a year.
It took a long time to master, mostly because everyone told me it was impossible in the Razor.
Dove tanks with up to 6 Kilograms of negative buoyancy with it, even single tank (did not always look 'that' good, mind you)

That's why I am very outspoken in this regard: The Razor is able to carry any tank available in Europe (even HP=300Bar cylinders) and any valve available, as long as it is not to much for the divers body type (length, weight, thickness, can be anything).

btw.: my avatar is 2x 10Liter 300Bar steel tanks, if I remember correctly about 9lbs of negative buoyancy each, about 2 years ago.

Which is not meant to say you couldn't do everything in all the systems I can only do in a Razor and more probably.

A good friend of mine got the official Razor course from Steve himself. When diving in the US, he can only dive 1 type of steel tank with his Razor IF he's wearing thick exposure protection before his Razor starts becoming severely suboptimal. I'm sure you could dive more weight with it, but I highly doubt you SHOULD. It's certainly not the cleanest rig for steels. Maybe euro tanks are less negative, or your drysuit is helping. Let me put it this way, if you need lead.....you're not diving the configuration I'm talking about. Without lead, I'm often noticeably negative without a drysuit. Even with a drysuit, I'm noticeably negative at the end of a dive. You talk about adding weight, which means your exposure protection is compensating for whatever negative buoyancy those tanks have. As long as you're not diving a wetsuit to mildly deep depths with those tanks, you'll be okay. Below 60ft in a thick wetsuit, your wetsuit will compress and the Razor might start suffering.

Like I said, I like the Razor for what it was intended for.......but many people don't dive in that configuration.

 

[Razorista]

...it isn't designed for that...

Whatever gave you that idea?
The designers say differently whenever asked.

It worked fine that way and is working very well for me at the moment with the cylinder types that became my favorites: 7 aluminum's and 8 liter steel small tanks and 80cft for larger volumes.
But Steve Martin's and Steve Bogaerts' most cited recommendation for cold water at least is '12 liter steel euro tanks' - look it up!
Steve Martin even made a Video of it... here it is: Steel or Aluminium Cylinders..? (Steve Martin) - YouTube
I am torn between buying two 12Liter steel or 10 Liter aluminum myself at the moment, because both have their uses.

 

[djcheburashka]

Ummmm.... How about the configuration of the wing and the lack of buttplate? Not that those are *wrong* design choices but they definitely are not the choices you'd make with a rig if your focus was on heavy steel tanks.

I don't know what role you even have in this discussion-you've told us you aren't physically able to use deco bottles so you aren't doing long dives anyway.

 

[Razorista]

...but many people don't dive in that configuration.

Me for example!

I am actually diving with weights in a drysuit at the moment.
But that is because I am using neutral tanks mostly and the wing can take a lot of weight if I had to take another pair for just one dive.

With 12 Liter steels I dive without weight and those are only sightly negative.
My 8 Liters are meant for lead-free summer dives in a wetsuit, but I never had the chance to use them for that.

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 09:13 PM ----------

...you've told us...

You twist my words again.
I told you I could not walk on land or stand up with 4 80cft aluminum stages (or more) at the same time (and pick up a scooter or two on land then, etc...) and would not try to make that easy, because it cannot be, even for stronger people than me.

And I freely admit to not being a technical diver, would not want to.
Sadly I had bought a very technical looking diving equipment a few years ago, so I had to face a lot of discussions and had to try a lot of things I did not need.
Packing a lot of stages and swimming an few meters with them was one of those repeatedly. I do not need it, but I know I can do a lot of things in a Razor, because I already did and videos of more accomplished divers show that is not something only I can do.

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 09:34 PM ----------

How about the configuration of the wing...

Isn't perfect, but I do not know anything better I could replace it with.
It still allows some things everyone always tells me are impossible...

and the lack of buttplate?

Who would need something like that?
The whole concept of the Razor would turn a buttplate into a severe disadvantage.
When tanks are connected to the buttplate they would tend to hang low at the bungee and either ride up at the bottom or hang unstably down from the rails.

With a correctly configured Razor you should be able to do exactly like Steve and others do in videos:
Roll onto your sides and back without the tanks moving from the ideal position even slightly, head-down the tanks should not go into a V shape, things like that...
Can be done with tanks connected to a buttplate, but that is unnecessary and much harder to do.

If you ask HP or Steve they tell you that the Razor only needs two low profile D-rings at each hip - try it.

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 09:41 PM ----------

A good friend of mine got the official Razor course from Steve himself.

What kind of training did he get, if I may ask?
If it was only the Basic Sidemount Diver course I took myself I wouldn't wonder - something like that would be way beyond the scope possible in Mexico with 80cft in a basic training.

If he had something like a sidemount full cave training he should call the instructor and demand explanation
I am sure any of the Razor instructors I met could give a sufficient answer.

Below 60ft in a thick wetsuit, your wetsuit will compress and the Razor might start suffering.

I find that always hard to understand logically.
Perhaps you are able to explain it to me.

What could be the problem with neoprene compression with a wing of 45lbs??
We both know that the famed 'beachball-effect' is more legend than fact, don't we?
And even if it existed, at 60ft it would not matter, would it?

 

[victorzamora]

Me for example!

I am actually diving with weights in a drysuit at the moment.
But that is because I am using neutral tanks mostly and the wing can take a lot of weight if I had to take another pair for just one dive.

Like I said, if you're diving weights you're not in need of much lift....just the lift to offset your breathing gas. You're diving VERY light steel tanks. That's what the Razor was designed for. It wasn't designed for HEAVY tanks. Euro 12L tanks are LIGHT. You are, in fact, diving in that intended configuration.

What kind of training did he get, if I may ask?
If it was only the Basic Sidemount Diver course I took myself I wouldn't wonder - something like that would be way beyond the scope possible in Mexico with 80cft in a basic training.

If he had something like a sidemount full cave training he should call the instructor and demand explanation
And I am sure any of the Razor instructors I met could give a sufficient answer.

I can't remember which training he got with Steve, but he did Full Cave with another Razor instructor (ex-Instructor, now....two, actually). However, you simply cannot overcome physics. I believe you're having trouble understanding the difference between weight and buoyancy. The Razor can only comfortably offset a certain amount of buoyancy. Yes, it's rated for 45 pounds of lift....but it can't PROPERLY lift that much. It can only actually lift a few pounds before the beach-ball starts becoming aggressively intrusive.

 

[Razorista]

You are, in fact, diving in that intended configuration.

I also dive several configurations with ideal sidemount tanks at the moment. Also ideal for any other system btw.
But neither exclusively, nor from the beginning.
Sadly, to do that with water at freezing point a few times a year weight is unavoidable half the time.

It can only actually lift a few pounds before the beach-ball starts becoming aggressively intrusive.

I never experienced that effect! Not even when holding 20 kilograms of 'negative buoyancy' in my arms (ten two-kilogram pieces of lead).
The wing bulges up, yes, but that's more or less negligible. The wing still stays flexible for restrictions and it does not look bad enough to be ashamed I you get caught on camera.

But of course you are right, there are loads to heavy (or negatively buoyant) for the Razor even with training and optimal setup - but I actually do not know any system myself, backmount or sidemount, able to lift much more.

 

[victorzamora]

The wing bulges up, yes, but that's more or less negligible. The wing still stays flexible for restrictions and it does not look bad enough to be ashamed I you get caught on camera.

Then your standards must be lower than mine. I've seen multiple divers attempt to dive very negative tanks in a Razor and they all ended up with so much space between their back and the wing that I passed a reel through it without touching them.

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 04:49 PM ----------

weight is unavoidable half the time.

Weight is by no means a bad thing, but the bulk you add with your thick undergarments under your highly inflated drysuit drastically reduces the amount of lift the Bat Wing needs to provide. This means you can dive much more "weight" without needing as much lift out of the wing, meaning you will get a significantly less exaggerated beach ball effect. However, not all of us dive super thick undies.

 

[djcheburashka]

Razoriata you need to stop...

I'm not twisting your words, you just make no sense. You don't tech dive and don't use deco bottles but you do go with giant double steel tanks and a team that's annoyed to wait for your setup.

You don't understand why the wing would be different if it was designed for steel tanks (it would have more lift!!!), or how it could be different otherwise.

Why would someone need a buttplate? They don't *need* one but it's a more optimized configuration if you're diving with heavy steel tanks. Another difference: with heavy steel main tanks youd probably mount your deco bottles above rather than below, razor style.

Victor has all of this correct.

It's really... I mean you speak authoritatively and answer everyone's configuration questions but it's becoming more and more clear that you're confused about even very basic concepts like proper weighting.

Recreational diving in sm with two heavy steel tanks... Had to drop out of three sm courses... Physically incapable of diving deco... Body type description makes no sense... Description of boat ops makes no sense... Never heard of a wing with more than 40 lbs of lift...

Oh - and yes, it does start to beach ball. With the bungies tight, at around 10 lbs of lift by my estimation. I don't find it problematic, and I doubt it's a big deal except in some *very* tight restrictions, but then again I haven't had to add much weight with it so far.

 

[Razorista]

Then your standards must be lower than mine. I've seen multiple divers attempt to dive very negative tanks in a Razor and they all ended up with so much space between their back and the wing that I passed a reel through it without touching them.

You mean under the bungee? At the sides?
Or did it really stand up above them??

Weight is by no means a bad thing, but the bulk you add with your thick undergarments under your highly inflated drysuit drastically reduces the amount of lift the Bat Wing needs to provide. This means you can dive much more "weight" without needing as much lift out of the wing, meaning you will get a significantly less exaggerated beach ball effect. However, not all of us dive super thick undies.

Ah well, I won't go into that it is slightly different in a Whites Fusion...

When I talk about the wing filled, I mean it to be filled to maximum pressure, when the dump-valve starts over-pressure burping (why shouldn't I have tried this I have to ask you?).
I have been used as a replacement lift bag occasionally, whenever someone realizes something to be to heavy it is dropped into my arms.
I have tried severely overweight diving and went as far as possible with the wing filled (and was using a wetsuit then first).
There was also sometimes need to prove that the wing is big enough to rescue unconscious divers (who really tried to get the Razor to fail by stuffing amounts of weights into their pockets that could only be called ridiculous).

Sorry, I do not see it.
When filled with up to 15 liters the wing can still be pushed into shape with next to no resistance and its underside 'hugs' my back with a bulge on top at a place my body curves in the other direction (lower spinal area).
At close to 20 Liters everything gets really stiff and inflexible, but that is some respectable lift capacity. I do not see where you could put even a jump-spool anywhere between me and the wing at any time (but I will try tomorrow).
Much more is not possible because the overpressure valve is activated by the bungee pressure before the wing is filled completely.

---------- Post added August 8th, 2014 at 12:07 AM ----------

... you need to stop...

'Dude'... What is your problem? really...

You seem unable to stop.

Victor has all of this correct.

Probably. But it looks to me like you don't.

you're confused about even very basic concepts like proper weighting.

Said the guy misplacing his attachments by 90 degrees and thinking it to be correct without checking.

...Never heard of a wing with more than 40 lbs of lift...

And you say you are not trying to twist my words? Try again!

---------- Post added August 8th, 2014 at 12:08 AM ----------

I mean you speak authoritatively.

Where? when?
Must be some kind of language barrier...

 

[MSargeant]

If I recall correctly the DR Nomad has a 60lbs capacity, heard some reaching 100 but can't confirm at the time.

I dived my razor clone with 4 ali80s (the old catalina ones that float when breathed down) and weighted myself neutral when they're empty) (Would jump in and run them down for a second dive in the shallows + I'd nearly empty the high mix on my last stop for added safety). Had air in the wing and it was a beachball, my wing is the closest thing you can get to the razor, without paying the mental price tag for one, same shape, little under the lift capacity and same attachment methods.

Before anyone says anything, I know my cylinders look like crap, there was a fair bit of fiddling done afterwards. Karabiners on the stages which tore your hands to shreds meant our attitude was more of get them on and leave them there. (They were pretty low in this shot)



The side bungee connection for the wing were tight, I retied them prior to diving due to the swap from Drysuit to wetsuit.
Doesn't really matter if the wing is malleable/not solid (certainly was), it still looks unsightly.