Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[Razorista]

No offence directly intended, but it does come across that if it has a Razor badge you love it, if it doesn't, you don't.... that's just an observation, not a judgement!

Not everything has to have a Razor badge, but it certainly helps.
Btw: at the moment I also 'love' my new XDeep Black-BT and my very used Whites Fusion and both are not what HP would recommend, I think at least.

This i would put down to poor technique on your part then.

You can put it down to that. Dropping double-enders into the void is inexcusable after all.

There is plenty of time during safety stops where cylinder manipulation should be a breeze and frequently dropping double-enders is purely poor technique and not something i would envisage most people having a problem with. On that basis, if it's your justification personally for not using this technique, no problem, whatever works for you, but the forum is offering guidance and advice for the many, and in this case, still stands as good solid advice (IMHO)

Helps as long as the bungee technique is not developed enough - afterwards it's just a nuisance. It is still good general advice, I do not deny that.

I have a problem myself with the right timing on the way down with people in mixed teams who do not wait enough for other group members.
On the way up I just tend to forget about everything not immediately relevant and did not clip in even when I had the option most of the time.

I acually know some people always carrying those double-enders with them, but they are mostly used to clip-away the fins while walking and for that I am using something similar that is easier to put away.

Again, if this is your experience, then fair enough, however I feel certain that this is not the wider experience. ...

Well, who can tell wide experience from none in sidemount nowadays?

I'm not certain, but it's possible you've misunderstood ... they are not left in place throughout the dive. After entry the bungee loop is connected and the double ender removed and stowed, brought back out for re-connecting, usually during the safety stop, prior to exit.

You won't find the chokers on the tanks of the mentioned divers either.

My B-ring was acctually a bit cluttered on the last dozen dives.
I would not like to have two other things clipped there, especially if I am carrying identical ones with me already.
I have at least 4 double-enders (Sidemount safety clip, secondary mask holder and 2 on the pouch itself) and sometimes more than 10 clipped to me in various places. Sorting through them for the right one is something I would not do more then once before removing any I could get by without.

Everyone is always complaining that sidemount is full of unnecessary hassle and holding up mixed groups on entering the water.
Best way to get adjusted is leaving out steps, even small and insignificant ones. Something that does not have a benefit is first in line there.

@MSargeant

I suggest practising somewhere shallow... a lot.

'Test' means I use a frayed bungee on purpose or damage the clamps just enough to fail after several dives without announcing it.
The surprise is the same then, but I try to do it while the planned dives are at save places for a few weeks (as I said, I do not take risks when diving where possible).
I try out most ideas this way and always introduce flaws that mimic reality as close as possible.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

My B-ring was acctually a bit cluttered on the last dozen dives.
I would not like to have two other things clipped there, especially if I am carrying identical ones with me already.
I have at least 4 double-enders (Sidemount safety clip, secondary mask holder and 2 on the pouch itself) and sometimes more than 10 clipped to me in various places. Sorting through them for the right one is something I would not do more then once before removing any I could get by without.

On this i feel we're best to agree to disagree....

If you already have "spare" double-enders then two of these would be fine for multi-role use to be used for this purpose on entry and exit, and left on the B ring as "spares" during the dive for failures etc...

Removing the step, when we're referring to a solid and secure method of carrying the weight of cylinders when out of the water, constitutes taking un-necessary risk IMHO as an unplanned break in bungee could very easily cause significant injury, either to yourself or others.... when the work around is a 5 second job giving total security to mitigate this risk, i see no valid reason to take the chance.

But that's just my opinion, you're entitled to your own..... it's wrong, but you're entitled to it!

 

[Razorista]

... it's wrong, but you're entitled to it!

Oh well, if you think so.

...and left on the B ring as "spares" during the dive for failures etc...

Why? I can just as easily take out my replacement bungee if I need to, or take a double-ender from the pouch at leisure when needed.

As I told you it is not necessary to secure the tanks with quadruple redundancy and you do not see methods like that on experienced sidemounters rigs (it's something used for other sidemount and bungee systems).
But you are welcome to learn that yourself.

BTW: Did the changes in stage setup help with the position of your 12 liters.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

BTW: Did the changes in stage setup help with the position of your 12 liters.

I'm still making minor adjustments to make it perfect for me..... i've some feedback suggesting i'm being over critical of my cylinder trim, but i can't help wanting to improve always.

Not had chance to dive it since my last changes.... so still a work in progress....

 

[Razorista]

Good luck then!

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 05:57 PM ----------

Can you please show pics of how you do this?

Since nobody did get a chance to post the pics yet: here is a very old one by Steve Martin with one of the options for doing it:
http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/LiveContent/476/Images/Cord Loop for butt mounting cylinder.JPG

Just to show you that I do not generally dislike the idea, I just do not need and use it myself anymore.
For me those pictures at his site solved many problems and his videos solved most of the rest.
All I could teach myself in a year, a few month and 300 dives was still only a pebble on the mountain of knowledge HP could deliver in 3 days of 'Basic Course'.

I had visited three sidemount classes by various agencies before the gosidemount training and only completed one (as in 'paid for the plastic card') because the others where just a waste of time - HP had so much more information to offer, I did not mind that I had heard some of it before since everyone seemed to have copied most of his slides for the other presentations I had seen - but HP could completely explain those slides, nobody else had been able to before (and they contained his pictures and where all showing Steve Bogaerts, hard to guess who had made those first).

 

[djcheburashka]

Who can tell wide experience from none?

Let's see -- you don't dive with deco bottles, you seem to have totally different experiences with gear than everyone else, and you say that one of your big issues is that the dive teams get annoyed waiting for you on the descent. Hmm...

 

[Razorista]

@djcheburashka
You are hilarious my friend and fellow Razor user.

Let's see -- you don't dive with main tanks configured correctly and are convinced yours must be the recommended standard (while it demonstrably isn't), you seem to believe there are standards in sidemount and those are yours only, and you say the only qualification for a diver is how many tanks he carries on his dives. Hmm...

And then you try to twist my words and question not what I am writing, but my assumed background.

You know, I started to laugh at that attitude a little more than 500 (sidemount) dives ago.

I just try to offer information, take it or leave it

---------- Post added August 7th, 2014 at 07:45 PM ----------

btw: What happened to the threadopener?
Did he buy the cheap Razor, or is he still waiting for the 2.1?

 

[victorzamora]

So, I know this is a Razor-fest.....but I always dive with my tanks clipped off hard (non-bungee) to my harness. It takes about a second to do and undo, and makes any walking at the surface a breeze. Whether I'm on a boat in the tropics with a single AL80 or I'm doing a cave dive with four bottles, I can walk with all of them clipped off without relying on the bungee. My procedure is to clip in my neck clip (butterfly clip on a long loop of rope around the valve), clip in my tail clip, route my hoses, and then bungee-up in the water. If I'm gearing up in the water or on the boat, that doesn't change. It works great for hot-drops because bungeeing up a tank can be done on descent with little focus being given to it. It's not common, but if I need to walk up a ladder or up the shore with my tanks on, I can, with no forethought or change in procedure necessary from me.

As for Razor vs SMS75, I think they're apples and oranges. I like the Razor-type harnesses for one or two tanks and warm water (alu or super-light steels only). I like them for travel. It's what it was truly designed for.....and it does well. The SMS75 is a bigger, bulkier harness. It was truly designed for colder water, drysuits, and steel tanks. The benefit the SMS75 has is that it CAN do the warm-water stuff, whereas the Razor takes very extensive mods to do the steel-tank stuff. I think the Razor was great for what it was, but the beach-ball effect is pretty atrocious and the price is unjustifiably high.

 

[Razorista]

Wouldn't want to criticize you victorzamora but when diving a Razor in the same way as the SMS75 of course they do not feel much different. And of course the SMS is the more 'powerful' system used that way and therefore more flexible.

I dive an unmodified Razor 2 and started without owning my own tanks in Germany.
That meant mostly steel 10 Liter with a valve that is not very good at holding a bungee and only available one sided - for more than a year.
It took a long time to master, mostly because everyone told me it was impossible in the Razor.
Dove tanks with up to 6 Kilograms of negative buoyancy with it, even single tank (did not always look 'that' good, mind you)

That's why I am very outspoken in this regard: The Razor is able to carry any tank available in Europe (even HP=300Bar cylinders) and any valve available, as long as it is not to much for the divers body type (length, weight, thickness, can be anything).

btw.: my avatar is showing two 10Liter 300Bar steel tanks, if I remember correctly about 5lbs of negative buoyancy each excluding air, about 2 years ago.

Which is not meant to say you couldn't do everything in all the systems I can only do in a Razor and more probably, I am just saying that I tried every kind of tank with the Razor and most work quite well.

 

[djcheburashka]

Yes it's *capable* but it isn't designed for that and doing that isn't a good idea. If that's what you want to be doing then the razor probably isn't an ideal system for you.