djcheburashka
Contributor
Oh, you are right, but look at all the other places.
And as I said x.1 means new production run, not new product.
Huh? It sure as heck means the opposite to me...
No, the manual does not tell you how to attach your tanks. It also does not teach frog kick or which mask to buy.
Not remotely the same thing. The way you configure the razor has to match the way your tanks are configured very, very precisely. If you move the waist strap by an inch or two, or the sidemount d-rings by a half an inch, or tighten or loosen the sidemount bungee by an inch, you see a much larger change in the angle of the tank. This is because the d-rings attach in the middle of the tank -- its the Pythagorean theorem and all that Anyway, the system is incredibly sensitive to small adjustment in position and sizing. This is especially true with steel tanks.
The other systems tend to solve this problem by having the tanks attach further back, at the butt. I'm not saying they're correct. The ultimate result with the Razor is better, in my opinion. But getting there is highly non-trivial, takes a slew of practice dives, and then adjusting it one way or the other for different exposure protection...
Regarding boats and ladders: Gearing up with *one* tank sidemount takes up about 1.5x as much space on the bench as a diver gearing up backmount. Gearing up with two tanks, let alone two tanks and two stages -- you're taking up the space of three people on the bench, walking around is very difficult because bits and pieces bang into each other, etc.
As for ladders -- unless you're 2-dimensional thin, which you may be, two sidemount tanks is wider than whatever you call that cutaway where the ladder meets the railing around the boat. You know the thingy I mean.
But I do not think it's designers make more than half their regular dives with less than 4 at the moment (and 2 scooters, rebreathers perhaps,...).
I think you meant the opposite. If so you're right -- but they're gearing up already in the water because they're diving cave.
I cannot carry 80 pounds on my back up a ladder, it just rips my hands off on the first movement of the boat and on any wave hitting my legs. I can manage 2x30 at each side and 20 on my back though.
Do you mean 2 AL30s, or 30lbs on each side? Because those are very different things... It sounds, though, like you're much, much smaller than I am. And I'm considered pretty darn thin.
I actually prefer clipping to the font D-rings when climbing or sitting. They hang very close to the body, no way to get entangled (even protect my knees).
Picture? When I try doing this the tanks bang into my knees at every step.
I personally find it uncomfortable on entering the water when I have to much material on parts of my BCD and would always rather do without.
Sure. But we're talking about whether to put on a simple minimalistic weight pouch. That's hardly a lot of material.
Should [the T weight system] do more then? Is that your question?
Like I said, I replaced it completely. I think it reflects some poor design choices.
You've had some problems with it, which I see from your pic of attaching a weight to it using bungee. That's something I would never, ever do, use bungee to hold weight. Bungee breaks. If a bungee on the wing breaks its still held in 2 or three other positions. A problem, but fixable and not a crisis. If a big weight drops off your gear unexpectedly, that's a crisis and it may not be fixable. So, respectfully, you've adapted to a defect in the T weight design by rejecting the intent of the T weight and devising a system that has additional risks and issues.
What makes a 'good design' a good design?
Lots of things. Ease of use. Efficiency. Efficiency in the water. Reliability. Low maintenance. Easy of fixing problems underwater. Ease of adjustment. A gazillion things.
I mean, seriously, is that your defense here?
It is better, however, than anything I could really build myself as replacement yet (I would not use it anymore otherwise).
You said a few posts ago that you liked the pouch on the Stealth
Yes, but I do not have many ideas myself that can improve those things that would not require including non standard custom made attachments and decrease overall security
...said the diver with weights held on by bungees
Well you can either have the Razor at the price they could come up with, or you could not have it.
Horse ka-ka. DSS (which manufactures the Razor) sells wings of similar size for $300, and crotch straps for $25. Beyond the wing and crotch strap, the additional parts of the Razor basic system (which sells for $670, or $800 with the pouch and an extra bungee -- I see they've stopped selling the T-weight separately) are 1 piece of webbing, some D-rings, a few tri-glides, and two small pieces of pieces of stainless steel.
All of that (except the wing) you could make yourself using webbing and tri-glides. I've seen people with systems like this.
If they had not released it and promoted it with those fantastic videos HP made all those copies would also never have been as successful.
Perhaps you would all be diving UTD or Hollis now - I wouldn't.
Actually, what first got the thing started was SB's results with systems he put together from webbing, triglides, and a camelback for a wing. How that minimalist cobbled-together $50 system became the Razor at $800 is a total mystery to me.
I understand the Steve and HP are unhappy with the amount of money that scuba instructors make. They should get some return on what they put into the design of the Razor. A 90% margin, however, is not appropriate for a product that requires this much setup, and has this many remaining design and maintenance issues. If they were charging the same amount for it as a middle-end backmount rig (given that there are so few components to the Razor anyway), then I'd say ok, cool. But at a 90% margin, if anyone would like to make their own rig out of webbing, triglides, and stuff from their garage, they're welcome to come by my place to take a look at how the Razor is put together.
Comparing those two Steves is not that accurate or fair, as Steve Bogaerts is just sharing with us some simple diving rig he has build for himself and been using successfully for a while. He could also just have continued being an explorer with it and nobody would ever see it outside caves.
Pffft! See above for Bogaerts' original system vs the Razor.
I'm not sure what your point is. Apple's gross margin on an iphone is something like 70-80%. If your point is that Steve Bogaerts isn't adding as much value to that webbing and steel than Steve Jobs and the entirety of Apple add to the silicon and iron in an iPhone, well I agree with that --- but, then how does SB justify a 90% markup?
Also, hasn't the price gone up by about 25% over two years? Its not as though DSS' manufacturing line is operating at 100% capacity either.
Now, let's step aside this issue for just one sec. Back to DSS manufactures the Razor. DSS is a great manufacturer. Very high quality stuff. I used all either DSS or Oxycheq (some excellent tropical weight stuff and very tough wings) gear when I dove backmount. He's invested in capital and so he's able to charge to recover that investment and for the risk he took.
I'm no genius, but I don't think it takes one to look at the Razor wing and say "Gee, you know what? I'm pretty sure DSS designed that."
Actually, I just went over to my Razor and did a little comparison with my DSS backplate, and I'd bet that SB gave some general input about where the lift should be and how to attach the tanks, but the actual design of the components came from DSS.
Tech gear is overpriced in general. I remember the first time I went to a dive trade show, overhearing two vendors smoking outside the hall saying "can you believe what these #*(*#@'s are paying for a couple pounds of steel with some holes in it?", and two years later everybody and their brother was selling backplates. But the Razor -- you're paying 30% more, and you don't even get the backplate!
Here's a hypothesis: DSS makes the same amount off the sale of a Razor that they do off the sale of their own gear (relative to the amount of their manufacturing capacity devoted to the Razor); the additional markup is what's going to SB, effectively as a marketing fee.
---------- Post added August 5th, 2014 at 05:25 AM ----------
Actually, I take something back -- I'll bet the majority of the dives SB and HP do are teaching classes. Where they don't have two scooters or six tanks. But where they do return to the same site day after day after day, because its their "office."
It reminds me of another DIR/JJ thing that bugged me. I can't remember whether it was a book or a video or what, but there was a line in one of the DIR materials that it was no accident that so many of the leading DIR divers had positions of "dive leadership," meaning they were instructors. The point the materials was trying to make is that to be a good team diver everyone has to have leadership (I think). But I took a different point -- people who dive 5 days a week every single week are going to have a different skillset, and a different set of preferences and issues, than their customers. Equipment and techniques designed by and for instructors isn't going to be ideal for other divers.