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Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by ScubaShaneVB, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Huh? It sure as heck means the opposite to me...


    Not remotely the same thing. The way you configure the razor has to match the way your tanks are configured very, very precisely. If you move the waist strap by an inch or two, or the sidemount d-rings by a half an inch, or tighten or loosen the sidemount bungee by an inch, you see a much larger change in the angle of the tank. This is because the d-rings attach in the middle of the tank -- its the Pythagorean theorem and all that :p Anyway, the system is incredibly sensitive to small adjustment in position and sizing. This is especially true with steel tanks.

    The other systems tend to solve this problem by having the tanks attach further back, at the butt. I'm not saying they're correct. The ultimate result with the Razor is better, in my opinion. But getting there is highly non-trivial, takes a slew of practice dives, and then adjusting it one way or the other for different exposure protection...

    Regarding boats and ladders: Gearing up with *one* tank sidemount takes up about 1.5x as much space on the bench as a diver gearing up backmount. Gearing up with two tanks, let alone two tanks and two stages -- you're taking up the space of three people on the bench, walking around is very difficult because bits and pieces bang into each other, etc.

    As for ladders -- unless you're 2-dimensional thin, which you may be, two sidemount tanks is wider than whatever you call that cutaway where the ladder meets the railing around the boat. You know the thingy I mean.

    I think you meant the opposite. If so you're right -- but they're gearing up already in the water because they're diving cave.

    Do you mean 2 AL30s, or 30lbs on each side? Because those are very different things... It sounds, though, like you're much, much smaller than I am. And I'm considered pretty darn thin.

    Picture? When I try doing this the tanks bang into my knees at every step.

    Sure. But we're talking about whether to put on a simple minimalistic weight pouch. That's hardly a lot of material.

    Like I said, I replaced it completely. I think it reflects some poor design choices.

    You've had some problems with it, which I see from your pic of attaching a weight to it using bungee. That's something I would never, ever do, use bungee to hold weight. Bungee breaks. If a bungee on the wing breaks its still held in 2 or three other positions. A problem, but fixable and not a crisis. If a big weight drops off your gear unexpectedly, that's a crisis and it may not be fixable. So, respectfully, you've adapted to a defect in the T weight design by rejecting the intent of the T weight and devising a system that has additional risks and issues.

    Lots of things. Ease of use. Efficiency. Efficiency in the water. Reliability. Low maintenance. Easy of fixing problems underwater. Ease of adjustment. A gazillion things.

    I mean, seriously, is that your defense here?

    You said a few posts ago that you liked the pouch on the Stealth :p


    ...said the diver with weights held on by bungees :p

    Horse ka-ka. DSS (which manufactures the Razor) sells wings of similar size for $300, and crotch straps for $25. Beyond the wing and crotch strap, the additional parts of the Razor basic system (which sells for $670, or $800 with the pouch and an extra bungee -- I see they've stopped selling the T-weight separately) are 1 piece of webbing, some D-rings, a few tri-glides, and two small pieces of pieces of stainless steel.

    All of that (except the wing) you could make yourself using webbing and tri-glides. I've seen people with systems like this.

    Actually, what first got the thing started was SB's results with systems he put together from webbing, triglides, and a camelback for a wing. How that minimalist cobbled-together $50 system became the Razor at $800 is a total mystery to me.

    I understand the Steve and HP are unhappy with the amount of money that scuba instructors make. They should get some return on what they put into the design of the Razor. A 90% margin, however, is not appropriate for a product that requires this much setup, and has this many remaining design and maintenance issues. If they were charging the same amount for it as a middle-end backmount rig (given that there are so few components to the Razor anyway), then I'd say ok, cool. But at a 90% margin, if anyone would like to make their own rig out of webbing, triglides, and stuff from their garage, they're welcome to come by my place to take a look at how the Razor is put together.

    Pffft! See above for Bogaerts' original system vs the Razor.

    I'm not sure what your point is. Apple's gross margin on an iphone is something like 70-80%. If your point is that Steve Bogaerts isn't adding as much value to that webbing and steel than Steve Jobs and the entirety of Apple add to the silicon and iron in an iPhone, well I agree with that --- but, then how does SB justify a 90% markup?

    Also, hasn't the price gone up by about 25% over two years? Its not as though DSS' manufacturing line is operating at 100% capacity either.

    Now, let's step aside this issue for just one sec. Back to DSS manufactures the Razor. DSS is a great manufacturer. Very high quality stuff. I used all either DSS or Oxycheq (some excellent tropical weight stuff and very tough wings) gear when I dove backmount. He's invested in capital and so he's able to charge to recover that investment and for the risk he took.

    I'm no genius, but I don't think it takes one to look at the Razor wing and say "Gee, you know what? I'm pretty sure DSS designed that."

    Actually, I just went over to my Razor and did a little comparison with my DSS backplate, and I'd bet that SB gave some general input about where the lift should be and how to attach the tanks, but the actual design of the components came from DSS.

    Tech gear is overpriced in general. I remember the first time I went to a dive trade show, overhearing two vendors smoking outside the hall saying "can you believe what these #*(*#@'s are paying for a couple pounds of steel with some holes in it?", and two years later everybody and their brother was selling backplates. But the Razor -- you're paying 30% more, and you don't even get the backplate!

    Here's a hypothesis: DSS makes the same amount off the sale of a Razor that they do off the sale of their own gear (relative to the amount of their manufacturing capacity devoted to the Razor); the additional markup is what's going to SB, effectively as a marketing fee.

    ---------- Post added August 5th, 2014 at 05:25 AM ----------

    Actually, I take something back -- I'll bet the majority of the dives SB and HP do are teaching classes. Where they don't have two scooters or six tanks. But where they do return to the same site day after day after day, because its their "office."

    It reminds me of another DIR/JJ thing that bugged me. I can't remember whether it was a book or a video or what, but there was a line in one of the DIR materials that it was no accident that so many of the leading DIR divers had positions of "dive leadership," meaning they were instructors. The point the materials was trying to make is that to be a good team diver everyone has to have leadership (I think). But I took a different point -- people who dive 5 days a week every single week are going to have a different skillset, and a different set of preferences and issues, than their customers. Equipment and techniques designed by and for instructors isn't going to be ideal for other divers.
     
  2. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    Cannot help you there, that's the way it is defined normally.
    New Products get major numbers like 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 - improvements and upgrades get minor numbers, so it is 2.1.

    You want the manual to replace the training. That is not the way it should be done anyway (and it does not work).

    That is called sidemount training. It is sold seperately, you know?

    No! It takes almost the same room to set up a double 80cft backmount as the two separate 80cft do.

    And that is different from gearing up with any other configuration with the same amount of gas in which detail?

    Remove one tank while on the ladder, throw it through the opening, walk through with the other one attached.

    No! I do not! Dive boats in Europe and Egypt are very rarely constructed that way.

    Never tried using one of those and would not try to move both cylinders through.
    But it would be easy if you removed just one, or dove single tank.

    They also dive other places and others dive all the rest of possible places in the world by now.

    One 80cft per side at 14,8 kilos plus air, so about 30lbs per side.
    I am 182cm at 64 kilos, thinner and you disappear behind streetlights.

    Shorter tanks or higher attachment.
    To me it sounds like you are using a much to flexible attachment and a slack bungee.

    It isn't, but it is still not strictly needed. For most cave divers and technical divers that seems to mean it is to be left at home.

    I think the designers would even agree with you there.
    They just could not come up with something better that did not have disadvantages and would have increased cost unnecessary.

    The method of bungeeing weights is widely accepted and used. It is not extremely secure, but secure enough.
    As every piece is individually attached a bungee breaking would lose you one 2kilogram piece, easy to live with.

    You forget minimalism.
    From the things you mention I do not see one the T-Weight system does not fulfill.

    I do not see anything to 'defend', actually.

    I do like it. It is still to long and cumbersome for me and I would not like to give up the flexibility I currently have.

    To the diver having to adjust his system constantly. ;-)

    You are losing control here a little bit, aren't you?

    Of course, but without owning one before... Good luck trying...

    That is the Razor!!
    Steve sold the partly assembled webbing for $300, without the MSR Bag.
    Even the copied harness plates sold for more than $50 most places at that time.
    Today they are about 20 per piece, so still 40 for the plates only, no D-rings, no webbing yet.
    DIY you come to about 120-150 Euro or Dollar, material cost alone and without getting payed for your work-hours.

    I think you are assuming to much there.
    And it sounds a bit full of yourself. I mean no offense, but this is getting more agitated with every sentence.

    It is his 'original system'!
    Do you assume you know more about it than anyone else, even the designer himself?

    I not sure about yours either. Bringing Apple into this is like comparing apples to orange sidemount equipment - useless.

    DSS is only the manufacturer. To take up your example again: what has Foxcon (Apples manufacturer) got to do with this? They do not set the price or influence design beyond telling the designer what they can build and what they cannot - they are just a cost factor.

    One Steve was the bought in CEO of a company after his last 'sabbatical', voted into his position, without power to decide anything, but good for giving speeches and promoting hype.

    The other Steve is gosidemount himself and also different in all other regards, especially in being quiet and not hyping anything up.
    You should see his stage presentations: quiet, modest, truthful and packed with facts instead of hype.
    Totally different.

    Assuming again...Why?
    For myself I am not interested how the price for a product is established, at least not enough to let it influence my decisions.

    Sure, that's why they are famous for exploring and connecting the biggest cave system in the world (several times extended already).

    I do not think you are right in any way there.
    Where do you get that information from?

    Steves 'Office' is probably the Cenote he is responsible for and has to check up on, but I would not know, either.
    But he has literally hundreds of miles of cave connected to it.

    What has this got to do with anything I ask you?

    I do not think that the comparisons are valid in any way, so I can only ignore those.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  3. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Before it was production lines, now its improvements and upgrades :p which I agree with... Anyway back to the bat wing, there may be some improvements and upgrades, and I'd love to know what they are.


    Nu-uh. The Razor requires a unique, and very different, method for rigging gear. Its appropriate to provide divers with some instruction for how to do that. Divers who are experienced enough to be diving sidemount should be quite capable of reading something and then going into the water to try it out. Beyond that, not many sidemount instructors even know how to teach the Razor. Its *so* unique that you need specific experience to be able to configure it properly. (I'm 200 dives in and I *still* every few dives take out the go pro and try to get video from all angles so I see how the tanks are hanging and make adjustments.)

    Frankly, also, I don't view gear configuration as properly part of most instruction. There are some classes, like intro to tech, GUE Fundies, cave, etc., where learning how to switch to different gear is necessary to the nature of the class. But other than that, instruction should be about skill development, learning techniques, etc.

    What? The boat has benches with tanks behind them. Each diver has a two-tank-wide area that's "their" seat. The back mount divers fit right in put their harness on, and sit tight. The sidemount divers tanks cannot, however, stay behind the diver. They have to be rigged on the divers' left and/or right, which is where some other guy is currently sitting.

    How are you avoiding this issue? My only solution is trying to find a good spot on the boat lots of "i'm sorry's"


    This is possible. But it does have to be coordinated with boat crew, and some boats aren't thrilled about it. I try to be as self-sufficient as I can on the boat.

    Huh? When I'm getting back onto the boat, the back of the tank is clipped to the rear low profile D-ring. The head of the tank is *off* the sidemount bungee (I do this during the long, peaceful, largely uneventful 30' stop) and replaced with a safety clip (cave line around the next of the tank and a double ender), which clips to the chest d-ring. What do you think should be attached higher or should be more flexible?

    The issue with knees is that if I clip to the front d-rings, the tanks hang directly do to or just above and to the side of the knee, so they're going to bang into each other as you walk or go on the ladder.

    **** Back to the design and the economics ****

     
  4. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    I do not know if they ran out of BAT-Wings from the first production run, and those are actually new.
    There have actually been some improvements in the manufacturing process over time, I have been told once, but the wing has not changed at all from the users standpoint at least.

    As I said, sidemount training is sold separately. Especially Razor training since there are so few gosidemount qualified instructors.

    I did the same. Got my gosidemount training exactly after my 300 Sidemount dive in the Razor 2.
    Wrong way of doing it!
    Get specialized training first, or live with the consequences - I can.
    I would always do everything the same way again.

    I am not familiar with situations like this.
    But I can recommend a way to do it shown to me by other divers I never needed myself:
    Rig up tanks, stow hoses.
    Rig up yourself and leave tanks where they are.

    Sit down and wait with the tanks behind you.

    When standing up grab the tanks and either just sling the bungee the fast and dirty way, or turn the tanks around and clip the lower attachment boltnaps into the D-rings with the tanks upside down.
    Jump in and clean up afterwards.

    'narrow door' means single tank or gearing up in the water for you, in that case. No way around it and a similar problem for someone trying the same with stages or large backmounted tanks or rebreathers.

    Just do not remove the sidemount bungee from the valves.
    The tanks will not move around as much making it easier to negotiate ladders.
    I also like to clip into the front D-rings at the hip often, but that depends on the situation.

    Clipping in at the valve in addition to the bungee is redundant - as in superfluous.
    The bungee holds any tank securely enough and redundant security against dropping anything is already provided by the hoses and the way your arms are attached to your body in a natural catching position.
    Getting rid of that frees up D-ring space and makes it easier to get off the tanks in a hurry.

    The bungee should pull them to the sides and keep the knees clear.
    But yes, that is a problem.

    Whats wrong with it is that it is assumption without any facts behind it.

    You could ask Steve, HP, or even Tobin about that, but this is just rumor-milling.

    I know for a fact that you are wrong.
    While DSS of course influenced the final products look and feel with the way they produced it, they hold no rights to the design, are only producing for gosidemount/Steve Bogaerts.
    Since gosidemount is not Apple this Steve cannot convince the manufacturer to give him the product for anything below production cost (and the manufacturer will also not kill the workers in a spiral for ever lower product prices and higher production volumes).

    That's just ridiculous.
    The production cost in work-hours and material on the wing alone would top the figure you set for the whole system.

    It works very well for me. I take on or off a piece of one or 2 Kilos every few weeks and find it no trouble to use and much better than putting weight directly on the harness with any method I know.
    Purpose served!!

    You can do whatever you want. You describe the situation correctly, I just don't see the reaction as fully justified.

    Except for the last point I do not think so.
    But why on earth would anyone want to adjust weight underwater? (I would understand 'in the water' in general, but don't want that to be possible with any config I dive anyway).

    Very good solution. Tried similar things myself.
    But for me the T-Weight system is superior in several important ways.
    A gave away all of those pockets to divers having to get trim weights on their backmounted 15liter aluminums and never missed them since.

    That's fair to the designers. And you wonder about the pricing??
    For people like you every product has to sell for at least as many times the production cost as there are people able to reach your house. ;-)

    btw: Anyone also seems to be invited at Steve's place to do exactly that. At least that's what Patrick from XDeep, that crazy UTD guy and countless others already did.

    I am so grateful he does not take out grudges like this on others like some people do - otherwise there would be no Razor for me I think. I might never have known about sidemount as more than 'a specialized rig for cave diving' at all...

    You are of course free to do so.
    I do not think I will ever see many selfmade designs anywhere - people are lazy overall and buy rather then build.

    They are also scuba instructors. But Steve is not alone.
    From what I heard Steve does not teach classes below a certain level and a cave dive is a cave dive in my opinion, even and sometimes especially a training dive in sidemount config.

    Not in this case! I talked to HP several times. Almost any problem I had myself he had thought of before and knew about solutions (some made him laugh or roll his eyes, but he knew anyway).

    Right, but you are forgetting that sidemount is generally designed that way, it has nothing to do with the Razor or Steve and HP's situation.

    me?? NO!
    I would never do something like that.

    I never used stages for more than unnecessary extra redundancy. Never did any boat dive with a stage (or more than two sidemounted).
    I sometimes play around with stages, but I only have two or three additional regulators at a time and I do not need this for any of my dives.
    I do not even own a scooter.

    If I had to I would put all stages and scooters in the water and jump in with a maximum of one or two tanks attached to me. Even backmounted I would not try to do it differently.
    Why do it differently?

    The way you described is horribly dangerous and only crazy people would do that on a crowded boat.
    I would not be able to do something like that without something breaking inside or squashing someones hand or feet with enough force to end the trip for them.
    What you describe about two LP85 and two 40cft would be very challenging for me, but at least that's reasonable (only did things like that on lake and shore dives myself, though and only for practice, not because I needed to).
    If the whole boat crew and all other divers are there to support only your expedition - then perhaps it can be thought of in very difficult negative entry situations, but don't tell the insurance company.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  5. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
    571
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    I may respond to the rest later but-if you're doing a hot drop, rigging up underwater is not an option. Rear entry with all gear is the order of the day. A rear entry with doubles, two deco bottles, and a scooter is straightforward. A rear entry with sidemount doubles and two stages is straightforward. A rear entry with two tanks in sm and a scooter is straightforward. 4 tanks though... (Honestly -- if you've never dove with deco gas off a boat in sm, what kinda of dives are you doing?!?)

    This is not "horribly dangerous" or "crazy." The question is whether there's a safe maneuver with four tanks and a scooter -- I never found one.

    ---------- Post added August 6th, 2014 at 02:02 PM ----------

    Well now you're going around in circles :p

    Say what now? Are you really suggesting that people do boat entries and exits with the tank front held-up only by the bungie (and the hoses?!?!) without a safety clip? Even the manual says that isn't safe :p

    I did a couple of exits early on with single 80s where I forgot to put on the safety clip at the end of the dive. That was clearly a stretch. Trusting a single 3/16" bungee with the front of two steel tanks... Underwater, sure, but that ain't happening on the surface. And anyway, the deco bottles *have* to be clipped in front, they aren't slung from the bungee.

    That's true underwater. When you're standing on the surface, and the tank is clipped at your side, the front of the tank wants to fall either forwards or backwards, most likely forward where it will be caught by the safety clip (or, in your case, an extremely stressed-out bungee).

    This little detour was about the issues of rigging up the Razor on a boat -- in particular, I said that it requires more space and is more difficult than bm, that if you have multiple bottles and stages they can be an ugly mess in front of you until you get in the water, and that if you exit with the tanks clipped to the front d-rings they're going to bang into your knees. You've said none of that is true. At this point we're what, 8 posts or so in, and your description of how you use the gear is making less and less sense as we go along.

    1. How they divvy up the rights and who did what for the design are two very different things.

    In fact, since, as you point out, a number of companies have robbed liberally from the Razor design, what you said begs the question, the rights to what, exactly? I wouldn't think there are any "rights" here except to the trademark, i.e. the marketing. Which would confirm my suspicion, that what's really going on (economically) is that SB and HP are marketing a product for DSS that has some similarities to the original home-made minimalist system that got SB attention in the first place.

    2. Below production cost?!? The question is how Tobin and SB are divvying-up the *markup over cost* on the Razor. My hypothesis is that Tobin takes about the same margin on each Razor as he does on the sale of a DSS-branded unit.

    When I said $700 of the $800 system seems to be markup:

    Are you serious? Assume that the guy working in the factory makes double medium wage. Do you really think that one employee can only make one wing a day? Tobin has a *manufacturing* operations. He's not sitting there sowing everything himself by hand while tasting the vats of urethane to make sure they're al dente.

    An iPad costs Apple something like $150-200, fully assembled *after* FoxConn is done with it. Do you *really* think that the production cost of a Razor is higher than that?

    The retail cost of a common handgun in the United States is only a little bit higher than the cost of the Razor wing; the handgun has to be constructed to precisions of thousands of an inch and withstand pressures 200x greater than experienced by any scuba gear other than a first stage. Do you really think the Razor costs more to produce?

    None of this is intended to be critical of DSS in the slightest. The problem is pervasive to technical diving right now, and since the end of the recession that bumped-out a bunch of the smaller players in technical, the guys still standing have been having a field-day. But the Razor, which *is less* (beyond the wing just webbing, d-rings, a few pieces of steel) than backmount gear, and simpler to produce, is being sold for 3x the cost of an equivalent wing from the same manufacturer, 1.5x the cost of a complete backmount rig.

    This makes no sense whatsoever.

    (And, really, looking at the Razor components and DSS' unique pre-Razor components, its pretty hard to not see the connection. Heck, I don't think anyone besides DSS even made a coin-dump for scuba gear.)

    That isn't the T-weight system. What you're doing you can do with the Razor with the T-weight completely removed. So, how is the T-weight system serving a purpose for you?

    There are a lot of things about the Razor that are good design. The T-weight is not one of them. Its really pretty ridiculous, and I think its a pretty glaring example of the problem I'm pointing to.

    It seems you agree with my description of what they did with the T-weight -- it consists of two pieces of webbing with holes in them, and one piece of neoprene wrap and velcro, and it was originally sold as an add-on for about $70-100. Then they folded it into the basic harness, and increased the price of the harness by, I think, $200.


    It's not a common or desired activity, but it does happen, usually because the diver doesn't need the weight at that point in the dive and wants to use the weight for some other function, like giving it to a diver who's having an issue. Anyway, in this context *removal* is a kind of "adjustment" :p

    You like the Stealth pocket system better, except it wouldn't fit you. I took a look at the Stealth pocket system, and realized I could make one myself for $25 (retail price of two pockets). You were praising the Stealth pocket earlier -- its just weight pouches attached to webbing :p

    Will you concede at this point that selling the T-weight system for $70-$100 was ridiculous?

    I'm not going to begrudge someone a reasonable profit that rewards them for their contribution and compensates them for the risk and expense of their operation.

    When someone takes an already grossly overpriced product, strips most of it away, and then sells the remainder at 1.5x the cost -- sorry, that's a bridge too far.

    You know, when I first started diving seriously, one of the common themes from instructors was "the best designs were all made years ago, this new junk (fins or whatever) is just so the companies have a shiny, colorful new thing to hoist on recreational divers each year." Sound familiar?

    Yeah, which is pretty ridiculous also. I suppose when you're able to sell a product with a 90% gross margin other companies are going to move into your market until the price settles to the same margin as everything else, and that's how a free market is supposed to work...

    Anyway, who's the "crazy UTD guy," AG?

    Sure, but your point was that Steve and HP are doing most of their dives with 6+ tanks and two scooters. Mine is, nuh-uh :p

    Regarding whether the Razor design pays sufficient attention to issues of rigging-up and entering from a boat rather than rigging up in-water:

    No, it isn't. The more common pre-SB design approach (and probably more common today) uses secure attachments at the front. I'm not saying that's a better system. But it does go to the point I was making, that some of the "advantages" of the Razor design -- in particular, your example of being able to fine-tune trim by adjusting the position of weights by millimeters -- is something that only someone diving every single day has any possibility of taking advantage of.

    And the more I think about it, not even then. I think I said before that the balance of weight in my body shifts more from dive to dive than the effect of adjusting a weight by an inch here or there. But actually, the balance of a diver's weight is going to shift *during the dive* as the tanks are depleted. There's no carefully adjusting the position of each weight by millimeters! It doesn't make any sense at all.

    I'm just responding to this again because when I re-read it, it just seems like the wackiest comment ever.

    People hot-drop all the time. For technical ocean diving, outside the North Atlantic I'd wager that hot drops are more common than anchoring in. And in the NA, even anchored-in, rigging-up underwater using an E-line is often impossible because of the current and low-viz.

    In all of my diving, other than when I first got into SM and I tried using an E-line for a pair of dives in the Keys, I think I've seen someone using an E-line exactly once: a certain very, very physically small rebreather diver would use it *on exit only, never entrance* for her bailout bottles.

    Seriously, what kind of diving are you doing?
     
    shoredivr likes this.
  6. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    This may be normal for you. For me it is just physically impossible - I cannot do it, no way!

    You won't find one.
    It can't be done without any risk involved.

    This discussion is going in circles. I am just following.

    Never done it any other way.

    It is an American manual - do not put the hamster in the microwave for drying.

    The weight is on the boltsnap attachment lower on the tank the bungee just keeps it from falling over.

    That's why climbing with them will always be a challenge.

    The bungee is not stretched very much at all by weights similar to 80cft tanks.

    I am just saying that there is no difference in that regard between configurations if you get to more then two cylinders of air or gas.

    No, I did not!

    I am making sense you just want to have it fit your needs and that is not as easy.

    Well, if you want to think so you are welcome to do.
    I could not prove otherwise and am not interested to do so.

    I think you are right there, but that is just my own unfair judgement of Tobin whom I do not know personally at all.

    Yes, I am.
    I just continued comparing it mostly to a DIY solution.
    If Tobin can get his materials for half the price I can find for it on the internet, good for him, but I do not know, so I try not to assume.
    I am assuming he would not tell SB about it if he could - shame on me for that.

    No, but 10-20 Dollars of cost per wing is reasonable - if you start to assume anything.

    Yes I actually think it is. But comparing the two is leading us nowhere.

    Bad example, but: production volume!

    This is the same kind of talk as the 'sidemount hype' talk.
    I do not see the logic there, sorry.

    Ever tried getting your own plates or wing made?
    For a normal customer material cost alone at single unit prices can make this uneconomical.
    Single units are also hard to get made at all if you do not have access to the necessary machines yourself.

    It certainly makes sense when you consider the frequent 'sold out' information in the shop.

    DSS does not have anything to get the required task done but the coin-dump.
    So it must have been either that or switch manufacturer.

    But this is all assumptions, I do not know what you get out of that.

    I am sure your scenario is possible. But I do not think you are even close to the truth.

    How did you get that idea? I did not say that!
    I use it mostly as it is designed. If I use bungeed weights (as I said 1 in 100 dives) I also use the T weight system for that.
    It keeps the pull from the main webbing and that way nothing else has to be adjusted.

    Yes. To me the system as a whole is, the parts are less important to me.

    You are certainly right there.

    Something like that. I always thought of it as something like an intelligence test or bad joke to people unable to build their own.

    No they did not!
    I bought one of the first. It was 799 for the system then and now - it was a reduced price then it is the normal price now, on paper the price has actually been reduced over time.

    There are different types of weight and different positions that can be used for that purpose. Clip-ons come to mind.
    I do not have that requirement myself.

    I like it, but I do not like it better, I like it less, but it's ok!

    No it is not!
    It is not much more, it is less. The pockets are not seperate pockets, they have only one separation between them.
    Their main advantage is that they ofter a system that is secured by velcro only and very secure indeed.
    Single pockets do not work well using only velcro.
    But I do not think it is really sold for a bargain price either. Thinking about it, I also do not like the way it is attached to the harness.

    I conceded that several times already from the first post.
    Of course that was ridiculous.

    But you are doing exactly that.

    It is interessting that all those copies downgrade the concept in some way and still do not come close to the figures you are throwing around here.

    Yes sounds familiar.
    Then sidemount came along and shocked the diving industry with a new way.

    There are actually some small companies selling Razor copies for less then $150 (without wing).
    Need a pouch? Add 30 for some amazon military surplus and 20 for 2 long double-enders or 150 for a Razor pouch (the only really good one for diving at the moment).
    Then add a wing... In my area the unmodified MSR Bag is 65 Euro, add a used dump and inflator and some work and you can do it for about $100 around here. Since you can buy complete wings with the same design for $60...
    All 'important' sidemount system's wings are around $300 at least.

    Yes. Ever seen his videos on the Z-System? Hillarious! I thought it was satirical first.

    Most? Possibly not. But most important ones.
    I know they make more of those than I can manage in total and counting pool sessions.

    Perhaps less at the moment than before they started marketing the Razor.
    But judging from the updates on the Facebook page they still find time for some nice caves.

    All advantages, yes, but I do not say they are really relevant for everyone.
    As it is not relevant for everyone to be able to use soft weights with pockets for example.

    Works better for some people than others. Some can fully utilize every feature on their first dive, others can't.

    Most people diving every day tell me that they do not care either way anymore.

    You are starting to see it?
    No, probably not ;-)

    That's what I should ask I think ;-)
    The recreational kind of diving.
    I do not do 'risks', I do not do anything resembling 'work' while diving.

    This seems to be different to the way you dive.
    But as I said: that is not an option for me!
    The four 80cft and weights to counter gas and salt I would need for dives like that is way more than my own body weight.
    Impossible for me to do safely, no way to change that - for me that will always be rebreather territory, or I have to do something differently from the way you do it.
    Seriously, if I where to fall over wearing that the combined force would crush bones instantly and I would have to lie there anyhow until someone cuts me lose or I die of old age.
     
  7. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Ok i think we're pretty done here. A lot of this was about gearing up on the boat, and it's pretty clear now that a) while you use a tech diving rig you aren't doing any serious dives, at least from a boat, with it; and b) whatever body type you have is apparently quite different than the rest of us.

    I post one last time just to point out, for anyone reading this who isn't aware of it, that trying to walk around a boat with your tank held on by the waist clip and a bungee is not safe; the designers of the rig specifically say not to do it, and tell you how to avoid doing it. Having (by accident) done it (briefly), it did stretch the bungee quite far; the bungee does not just prevent it from changing position while the waist clip supports the weight.

    The bungee snapping is actually one of the sidemount specific failure modes. Divers carry an extra bungee and part of the training is replacing it underwater if it breaks.

    If the bungee snapped on the surface it would be hanging if by anything, by regulator hoses. Obviously not what you want. And if they pulled-out or didn't support it the tank would hit the deck (or whatever) on the valve, which is really quite not safe.
     
    shoredivr likes this.
  8. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    Funny, how often did you have a bungee actually snap?
    I do not think that to be anything special, but it happens to me very rarely and I never had a problem with it, neither in the water nor on boats (I was cursing like a pirate though).

    Happened to me the same way first. When I never found a problem with it, I removed the redundant clips from the tanks.
    It can be a problem in the wetsuit config I was diving then, but with two inflators connected I actually only need the bungee for elegance, the tanks would stay close to me anyway.
    When the regulator hoses are both around my neck they hold the weight of a 80cft without bungee well enough for me to sometimes forget about slinging it around the valve correctly.

    Then there is a problem in the rigging somewhere, I think.

    Well, being able and willing to stand with that load makes you the exception, I think.
     
  9. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Dude... Have you ever seen the gear people wear for tech diving? A pair of steel tanks, a couple of deco bottles, drysuit, weight to balance the drysuit... And very often a scooter.

    If you aren't physically able to do that there's nothing wrong with that, but do keep in mind that your advice is coming from the perspective of someone who's doing very, very different dives to very, very different standards that most of us in sm.

    Have I had a bungee snap on me? Not an sm bungee, but I have had to replace it a few times because it seemed to be getting worn out. Other bungees-yeah, definitely they snap. The outer material gets abraded then once one or two of the rubber things inside goes the whole thing goes pretty quickly.

    ---------- Post added August 6th, 2014 at 06:06 PM ----------

    Oh-and I had a class with AG (not sidemount). He's a controversial figure in diving, and not the warmest fellow, but he's hardly crazy, and he's made an enormous contribution to the sport.
     
  10. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    Wear yes, but carry all of that for more than a step or two on land or boat in one load? Very rarely...
    I also said that I do not see a problem with the right preparation, I just do not see a way to make that easy, or even sound easy.

    If you ever have a sidemount bungee snap without announcing itself you will realize how uneventful that can be (usually it is not the bungee but the clamps or knots that fail, btw).

    I don't think so. I might be a bit lazy sometimes though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014

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